WitchWars_Feb02

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 383

Date: 2/1/2002

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There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

2. RE: Re:RE: Re:Re: Re:And where IS Julia?

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

3. RE: Good for the goose...

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

4. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

5. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

6. Hey! Glad to meet cha all

From: "victorias_hideaway" <victorias_hideaway@yahoo.com>

7. Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

8. Re:Re: Re:Fact or Fiction?

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

9. Re: Re: Seen a God?

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

10. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

11. Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

12. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

13. Re:Re: Re: Betsy's Kudos

From: "dragerions" <Dragerions@aol.com>

14. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

15. Re:Atheist Witches

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

16. List traffic

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

17. Re: Re:Re: Re:Fact or Fiction?

From: "SeaDragon" <alphapythia@home.com>

18. Re: Academics

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

19. RULES was Fact or Fiction

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

20. Re: Re:Atheist Witches

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:01:29 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

--- Julia Walkingfish <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

<<Toria! Well well missy! About damned time! Smooch

& glad to see ya.>>

Right back atcha. If I hadn't been talking to AOB

yesterday, I wouldn't have known the list name *g*

Oh, and I caught a few grumbles a few posts back.

Just for the record, I didn't show up on the list to

defend Julia - that worthy lady is more than

capable... I showed up because it sounded like truly

interesting conversation. Hope y'all don't mind.

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:54:59 -0500

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

Subject: RE: Re:RE: Re:Re: Re:And where IS Julia?

-----Original Message-----

From: Out of the Dark, Inc. [mailto:News@OutoftheDark.com]

<<It was not a "childish innuendo", it was a honest question and one that

AoB voiced herself. AoB did not mention that she was a moderator of another

list Julia was on. You saw an answer to my question because you had

information I did not.>>

The childish innuendos was not directed towards the cc or not to cc issue.

It was not even directed really towards you. It was directed more to the

minions who would rather insult then provoke thought or laughter or emotion.

Sarcasm can only turn you on so many times before it starts turning you

off...

<<My next question would be "Why did AoB wonder why Julia cc'ed her a

message about bouncing mail if AoB owns several lists where Julia might be

bouncing mail" LOL>>

I don't recall her asking *why* she was cc's. I figure she _knows_ why she

was sent the email as well. Trust me. If I am wrong about this AoB will be

the FIRST person to tell me so. I love her to pieces but when I stop putting

out she gets rather testy. hmpf. I wonder why......

Sunshine

AoB's love slave

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:59:59 -0500

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

Subject: RE: Good for the goose...

-----Original Message-----

From: Angel of Bast [mailto:angelofbast@talk-freedom.com]

<<Shit. Sunshine, could we plan on going somewhere in Nevada other than

Vegas then? I want to test a theory...>>

Works for me. You KNOW I am always your partner in crime. And it would be

nice to earn a little extra gambling money. Getting laid would just be an

added benefit.

hee hee

Sunshine

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:07:39 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

--- Daliattx@aol.com wrote:

<<And, as far as deities go, I have seen many, many

pictures depicting Jesus Christ. He is a deity, is he

not? I have seen his pic but I can't prove to you

that he exists or ever existed. Same difference.>>

Well, actually you've seen artistic renditions of

him, not photographs *g* Not quite comparable. As to

being a deity, I don't know, but I know that many

people accept him as such.

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:07:06 -0600

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

At 02:30 PM 01/31/2002 -0800, Queens Plaza took time to post:

> C'mon Gwen... we've had this conversation before and

>I still don't understand the sad and pathetic bit.

Well, people can think I'm an idiot for believing in something that a

logical person should just KNOW doesn't exist because there is no logical

proof that it exists. So I think I can, in the same vein, think such people

are pathetic, or maybe pitiful is a better word, when they miss all the

wonder because they don't have faith.

I have a very strong belief in faith and how good it can be for someone.

For instance, once my uncle was seriously questioning his faith, the whole

thing about why would God let him suffer so much if he really existed. My

answer was of course that he is the master of his fate and his suffering

was his own doing but a closer relationship with God could only make things

better. After all, why should God care about someone who ignores God? He

went to church that very Sunday and he grounded himself with his faith. He

became a better father, a better husband, and his wife came back home

rather than filing for divorce. Yes, I firmly believe that faith and prayer

had a lot to do with it.

I can not prove for anyone else that Deity exists but I have experienced

Deity many times so no one can prove to me that They do not exist...

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 384

Date: 12/30/1899

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

2. Re:Atheist Witches

From: "lapis_star2002" <lapis_star2002@yahoo.com>

3. Re: Re:Atheist Witches

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

4. Re: Re: Re:Atheist Witches

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

5. Re: Re: Re:Atheist Witches

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

6. Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "lapis_star2002" <lapis_star2002@yahoo.com>

7. Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

8. Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "gypsy-witch" <suki_nova@hotmail.com>

9. RE: Re:Llewellyn and the Pagan Hillbillies

From: "Elizabeth" <Elizabeth9566728@yahoo.com>

10. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: "smokenmirrors1" <the_ghost@bellsouth.net>

11. Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "lapis_star2002" <lapis_star2002@yahoo.com>

12. Re: Re: Llewellyn is a disease!!!

From: Alex Fisher <settantta@yahoo.com>

13. Re: Re: Academics

From: Alex Fisher <settantta@yahoo.com>

14. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Alex Fisher <settantta@yahoo.com>

15. Re: Spirituality

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

16. Re: Llewellyn is a disease!!!

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

17. Re: Digest Number 368

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

18. Re: Re:Atheist Witches

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

19. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

20. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

21. Re: List traffic

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

22. Re: Re: Academics

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

23. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

24. Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

25. Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "gypsy-witch" <suki_nova@hotmail.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:12:01 -0600

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

At 06:26 PM 01/31/2002 -0800, Queens Plaza took time to post:

> I just find it interesting that while those who

>believe in deity are offended at the terms groveling

>or begging,

Well, there you go then, I wasn't offended by those terms. End of subject,

read the archives next time. *g*

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 385

Date: 2/1/2002

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: Re:Atheist Witches

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

2. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

3. Re: Digest Number 368

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

4. Open Marriages was Re: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

5. PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

6. Re: LDS Polygyny

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

7. Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

8. Re: Re: Academics

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

9. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

10. Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

11. Re: LDS Polygyny

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

12. What is the purpose of this list?

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

13. Re: Air and Gravity (was Re: WitchWars Poll)

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

14. Re: Re: Re: my bitch

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

15. Re: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

16. Re: Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

17. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

18. Re: What is the purpose of this list?

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

19. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

20. Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

21. Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

22. Re: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: Fred <shamandncr@yahoo.com>

23. Re: What is the purpose of this list?

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

24. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

25. Re: Academics

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:04:32 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Atheist Witches

--- Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch

<<I actually adore Denver. We just bought a house here

(like last Friday). It is a good pagan community and

doesn't seem to have all the "fun" some other cities

have!>>

Congrats!! Good for you!

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:07:22 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

>> So far the ony thing that has been reported as offensive is that I

>> don't beg, or grovel etc. Again, if you do, by all means be

>> offended.

> OK, Julia. I am asking for clarification here.

> Do you believe that people who pray to Gods are "begging" or

> "groveling"?

No, of course not. Prayer can be anything from creating a cybernetic

pathway, creating a thought form, sending energy or any number of

anythings. ( I'm no expert on all that prayer does for one, since I don't

do it.) On the other hand I've seen both xian and pagans offer pitiful

grasping pleas to their gods, offer bribes and trades (seriously) and yes

grovel.

If I say 'don't beg, borrow or steal' those are three different types of

activities. Beggers need not be included with theives nor vice versa.

> Do you believe that it is somehow a weakness if someone prays to Gods

> when they practice their Craft instead of thinking they are doing it

> all themselves?

Well, that's sort of a trick question so let's take it apart.

~Do I believe it is a weakness if someone prays to gods in their practice?

That would depend on how it's done I would guess....if done out of weakness

as in the 'grovelling' type behaviors I described, yes. If done as an

affirmation, no.

If someone only 'thinks' they are doing it on their own they would be

deluding themselves. If on the other hand they *are* doing by themselves

then prayer would be unnecessary.

> Do you believe people who think there is "something out there" are not

> as self-reliant and strong as people who do?

Why would I? I believe there are lots of things out there, just not gods.

> Your phrasing was offensive to me. Is this what it meant?

Maybe the exchange of information will help. Thanks for asking questions

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:07:55 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 368

Isis wrote:

> >>>Hey Isis - you were wrong. : P

>I already said that. Or do you like to repeat things? Debating this

>topic with you people is like beating a dead horse. :-> :-,

Isis? Hon? I think Sannion was just ribbing you a little... Take your

bong hit and come back all nice and mellow. ;-)

BTW, all, I'm not reading the email in any particular order at

this point. I've pretty much given up on that. :-P

Enyo

"Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man of some sense to know

how to lie well." -- Samuel Butler

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:37:54 -0700

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

Subject: Open Marriages was Re: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

| --- In WitchWars@y..., "Yannu Spirit" <spirityannu@h...> wrote:

The marriage was an open marriage with certain "limits". They were supposed

to talk with each other and "clear it" before having sex with someone. I'm

going to stop there.

Yannu

The coward who goes by smokenmirrors1:

| Actually I have spoken to the HP and HPS who presided over their

| permanent Handfasting (they were Handfasted for a year and a day

| beforehand)and they didn't recall any such arrangement in that

| ceremony. Perhaps it was in some other ceremony?

Gee, I didn't realize you had to work out all the details of the marriage at

the ceremony. Is this peculiarity just something you follow or do you know

others who do it as well?

My vows were one thing. The changes that occurred later were due to growth.

You do know about growth, right?

Arwen

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 05:38:12 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

I had permission to share this. This is where the other paragraph came from on this subject.

>>>>PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

>by Grey Cat, Members Advocate

>I can hear the outraged screams already. there are people out there who believe that the very idea of "Pagan Manners" is a conflict in terms; that "manners" are outdated, dishonest and hypocritical. Well, think again. Manners constitute the

>only successful technique ever discovered by humankind to enable groups and individuals, holding

>moderately disparate views, customs or beliefs, to get along together. There are things more important than manners; but, without manners, its unlikely that

>a discussion will ever go to them.

>Pagan manners are fairly simple and have nothing to do with which fork you use or how to word an invitation. They have to do with respect for others'

>feelings and beliefs. They most specifically have to do with recognition of the fact that you should "judge not the path of your brother or sister for their path is sacred." Manners are also the only way of

>attempting to grant everyone the personal space which each of us needs. There have been a number of attempts to write down a list of "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots" which will cover Pagan life. Here are several tries made by four different people:

>MY OWN OPINIONS

>1. Never assume that you are invited to a ritual or a nonpublic gathering just because your friend is invited. Have your friend call the group doing the event and ASK! (or call yourself).

>2. When participating in a ritual led by a group of which you are not a member, ask ahead of time what will be done. SHould there be something in the

>explanation, or in the set-up of the ritual area which bothers you, just quietly don't participate in

>the ritual.

>3. Ask the person(s) officiating at a ritual before you place anything in the ritual area; wear clothing or tools which might be considered unusual; or add private energy workings to the ritual being done.

>4. Never just walk out of a cast ritual circle. Ask someone in the group sponsering the ritual to cit you a door if your really and truly absolutely have to leave.

>5. Don't make comments on the ritual, its leaders or the amount or quality of the energy raised during the ritual unless such opinions are asked for by the

>leaders. Save it for your friends, privately, after the ritual is over.

>6. Vegetarians, Vegans, Strict Carnivores, Diabetics, and any others with very strong food preferences: no one minds your asking quietly and politely "Which

>dishes have meat (sugar, spices, hot pepper, etc.) in them?" When planning a meal for mixzed Pagan/Wiccan groups, it is strongly suggested that at least some of the dishes be vegetarian, sugar-free, relatively

>non-spicy etc. At all times, within and without the ritual context, always provide an alternative

>to alcoholic beverages.

>7. While many people have become far less secretive about their membership in a Pagan group, it is never, EVER, permissible to "blow someones cover". Do not ever call a friend or acquaintence by their Pagan name or mention their membership in a mundane situation.

>It is also bad manners - and a symptom of social climbing - to call an individual by his/her mundane name in a Pagan situation. It always reminds me of an extra calling John Wayne "The Duke" at a local bar.

>8. Whether you drink, take drugs or indulge in other similar behavior is completely your own business. It is always wrong to urge such behavior on any other

>individual. The majority of serious Pagan groups absolutely do NOT allow anyone under the influence of

>drugs or alcohol to participate in ritual. Do not be offended of you are turned away for this reason. If you are taking a psycho-active drug for a medical

>reason it is very wise to check with the ritual leader(s) so they will understand and can advise you if they feel the ritual might be harmful to you.

>9. Just because most Pagans/Wiccans are under 40 and in reasonably good physical condition, never assume that everyone is. Rituals and gatherings should be planned so that those with physical problems are not barred totally from participation. Particularly in

>ritual, be aware that many more people than you might think are "mobility disabled." Group ritual should take place in an accessible area and some thought

>should be given to designating a safe place for those not taking part in dancing to stand or sit. Please be alert to anyone to whom help would be welcome. Help them to find a campsite which minimizes walking - to the ritual area, to the privys, to the eating area -

>whatever. Help them pitch their camp. Don't make them feel unwelcome - most handicapped people have worked extra hard on their magickal skills and may be able to add a great deal to the power in ritual and to the

>success of the gathering.

>10. When at any sort of gathering, please be thoughtful. Particularly please observe true quiet

>after midnight. No one minds if you and others want to stay up all night talking or whatever. Everyone else minds a great deal if you stay up talking and laughing loudly and/or drumming. Those hosting a gathering should take the responsibility of keeping the noise level very low in at least some of the sleeping areas - and designating it as a quiet area.

>11. Do not allow yourself to get the idea that you know the One True, Right and Only Path! Even if you really do have the conviction that what someone else is

>doing is "wrong", "incorrect", "Left-hand path" or whatever, just don't talk about it. It is perfectly permissible to refrain from participating in the activities of those with whom you cannot feel

>comfortable. It is not acceptable to express the idea that they "shouldn't" be doing it. This is not to say that if you know of criminal behavior on the part of a so-called Pagan/Wiccan group you should not report it. We must also be responsible for cleaning up our own act.

>Paganism is glorified by its diversity. Please do not allow yourself to express judgement by categories. Whether or not you like or dislike blacks, Indians,

>Homosexuals, women, men, or whatever, keep it to yourself! If you really and truly cannot feel

>comfortable taking part in a ritual which isn't conducted according to the tradition you follow or

>if you cannot be pleasant in company mixed with groups you disapprove of, please just stay home.

Isis Wyndsong Peace

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 05:50:46 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

Khaire,

Only the main body of LDS banned polygamy. There were a number of Mormon

splinter groups, some of which maintain the practice.

Yours in the Gods,

>>>>Sannion

I guess I was right after all. :-P

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

I have a list also here at this site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

I have a community on msn communities also:

http:http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

I moderate this one with AoB:

AngelicMagick-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Shop at my online mall! Have fun!

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:51:52 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: (no subject)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Date: Fri, February 1, 2002 1:46 pm

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

> "god infested" "pathetic behaviours" are two more

> examples, Julia, of where you deliberately bait.

> Interesting to watch the Fish fish.

After, what? A week or so a couple more of these bone chilling insults

finally surface....no context, so by all means if those quotes offend

you, you have my permission to be as offended as you like. There's

just too much water under the bridge to go back and refute or discuss

every post in the past while.

However. What started out as a thread about gods, dieties and how

people experience, explain and understand them has degenerated into a

contest of who is insulted by me. For the record....If I have offended

anyone, go ahead and be offended. The statute of limitations is up for

expecting explanations with no more serious inquiries than I've gotten.

On the other hand AoB has rekindled a decent convo on the subject of

atheist witches and Kris has made a couple eloquent posts.

The reason that I bring this up yet again, is to try and dispell the idea

that atheists~ believe in nothing, believe in only science, etc.

I for one believe that the Earth is a sentient being. Why? Because I've

heard her heart beat. Sounds plenty weird when I say it right out like

that, but there it is.

At one point Betsy insisted that to be a witch you *must* utilize gods in

working magick. Kern (I think?) then expanded the definition to include

dieties/and/or/spirits.

I am a witch. I have been a witch my whole life and nothing anyone says

will change that. I believe in a good many spirit type beings but I do

not invoke them to do anything.

~well, I'd write more, but it's an ice storm and the power may go out so

I'll send this now and continue later if possible.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:06:34 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

I'm not sure if you meant to imply this or not, but it's a common enough statement, so...

Paganism is not a single religion, not by a long shot.

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Queens Plaza

So does that mean that because Paganism lacks

reference materials that they should be created? Does

a lack of reference material somehow translate into a

lack in the religion itself?

~Toria~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:17:04 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

My question:

How respectful "for others' feelings and beliefs" is it to assume from the get-go that the majority of your readers will be outraged because, clearly, they have no manners? (When an author starts an article on manners with a display of poor manners, I think it's fair to assume the author doesn't know what they're talking about [unless it's intended as satire, which this isn't].)

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Anita

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:38 AM

Subject: [WitchWars] PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

I had permission to share this. This is where the other paragraph came from on this subject.

>>>>PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

>by Grey Cat, Members Advocate

>I can hear the outraged screams already. there are people out there who believe that the very idea of "Pagan Manners" is a conflict in terms

... They have to do with respect for others' feelings and beliefs.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:22:20 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

"At one point Betsy insisted that to be a witch you *must* utilize gods in

working magick. Kern (I think?) then expanded the definition to include

dieties/and/or/spirits."

Actually, Betsy was using the deities/spirits definition from early on, if

not the start. What I did was point out that atheists can believe in spirits

and still be atheists, a point which took several go-rounds before Betsy

finally acknowledged it.

Now here's my question, since I haven't seen it asked:

How do you define "Deity" (or "God," if you prefer) such that a sentient

Earth is not a God? That is, what, for you, is the difference between a

Deity and a Spirit, such that you believe in the latter but not the former?

(I'd be interested to hear the theists' response to the question, "What is

the difference between a Deity and a Spirit?" as well.)

-- Kern

_________________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:26:52 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

I thought you said it was legal. It's not legal in Utah.

I know plenty of people who smoke marijuana. That doesn't make it legal. "Maintaining a practice" has nothing to do with legality.

How the LDS get around the law: Well, I'm sure techniques vary, but the way Tom Green (the LDS guy, not Drew Barrymore's soon-to-be-ex) did it was to marry and divorce, so there was a spiritual bond but not a formal legal one. By my understanding, he only had one "legal" wife at a time, but he had a whole bunch of ex-wives. (This would only work in some states: Michigan, for instance, has a law banning someone from living with their ex-spouse, although I don't know if it's ever enforced.)

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Anita

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:50 AM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] LDS Polygyny

Khaire,

Only the main body of LDS banned polygamy. There were a number of Mormon

splinter groups, some of which maintain the practice.

Yours in the Gods,

>>>>Sannion

I guess I was right after all. :-P

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:35:53 -0600

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

Subject: What is the purpose of this list?

Betsy, could you please clarify what this list is intended to be here for?

I mean, it seems to me that you set it up so that people could rant about

public Witch Wars or come here to work them out, kind of a service to the

community thing so rumors don't get out of hand or if they already have

they can be cleared up.

Now, it's being used as yet another discussion list that are a dime a dozen

to discuss terminology and such things. One of the reasons I did not answer

AoB's specific questions was because it seems to me that the atheist thread

is a bit off course from what the intended use of this list is supposed to

be. I don't know about anyone else but I kind of think it just a tad rude

to waltz into someone else's list and change it's purpose to suit your own

whim.... and then drag a whole bunch of other people over here to keep it

going like you want it to be.

*shrugs* Twits are like that though...

Top

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

To: Guardian <guardian@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Fwd: [WitchWars] Digest Number 386

Date: 2/2/2002

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Date: 1 Feb 2002 17:29:41 -0000

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 386

Reply-To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: Academics

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

2. Re: Re: Academics

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

3. Re: Re: Academics

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

4. Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

5. Re:RE: Re:Llewellyn and the Pagan Hillbillies

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

6. Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

7. Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

8. Re:Re: List traffic

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

9. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

10. Re: Re: Gossip.

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

11. Re:Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

12. Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

13. Re: What is the purpose of this list?

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

14. Re:Re: Air and Gravity (was Re: WitchWars Poll)

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

15. Re: Re:Re: List traffic

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

16. Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

17. Re: Academics

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

18. Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

19. Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

20. Re: Re: Academics

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

21. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

22. Re: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

23. Re: LDS Polygyny

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

24. Re: LDS Polygyny

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

25. Re: Re:Re: Air and Gravity (was Re: WitchWars Poll)

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:57:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

--- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm not sure if you meant to imply this or not, but

it's a common enough statement, so...

Paganism is not a single religion, not by a long

shot.

No, I did not mean to imply this at all. I was

responding to a post that used Christianity and

Paganism in an example, so I responded in kind.

Christianity is not a single religion, either,

although there is the base belief structure based on a

single document, even though that document has endured

many different interpretations and writings and

versions.

I guess while the purists bemoan the fact that

there is always a new interpretation of the Rede or

whatever, maybe they can see the process in a broader

context if they understand that Christians have the

same problem with different factions within their own

ranks. Which version is "true"? And does it truly

matter?

Is there more than one interpretation of the Bible?

Certainly. And many of us can see the wisdom in

this. So why not more than one interpretation of the

Rede? Or any other "Pagan" writing? Isn't growth and

adaptation what everyone sings about with Paganism?

Or is that only the New Agers?

What happens when we insist that there must be a

basic structure that everyone must adhere to in order

to be considered part of that religion? Don't we then

also subscribe to a "one true way" mentality? This is

one of the things about religion that I truly detest.

Once a person finds something that they can live with,

they *must* insist that the way they perceive it is

how it *must* be.

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:04:57 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

I think neopagans tend to be leary of "established reference materials" because of the fear that it will lead to dogmatism. There *are* "seminal" works that have varying degrees of respect. For Wiccans and witches, Farrar & Farrar's A Witches Bible Compleat, for instance, seems fairly broadly accepted as a good starting point; Valiente and Starhawk are likewise considered somewhat reliable. There are also older works, too, of course, things like QBL and CM reference works. For Asatruar, there are the Eddas and the Sagas. There's a plethora of ancient works and modern analyses for Greek and Roman Recons.

-- Brighn, Co-founder, ClearingHouse of the Gods (www.chotg.org)

I respect your right to believe as you see fit, so long as you bring no harm to me or mine; all I request is the courtesy of reciprocity.

----- Original Message -----

From: vampyresire1

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:51 AM

Subject: [WitchWars] Re: Academics

> So does that mean that because Paganism lacks

> reference materials that they should be created?

Judging by the simple fact of the arguments here concerning the

simple meanings of the words; witchcraft, magick, pagan, not to

mention the ones concerning craft, one could say quite possibly.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:11:13 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

Toria:

"No, I did not mean to imply this at all. I was

responding to a post that used Christianity and

Paganism in an example, so I responded in kind.

Christianity is not a single religion, either,

although there is the base belief structure based on a

single document, even though that document has endured

many different interpretations and writings and

versions.

I guess while the purists bemoan the fact that

there is always a new interpretation of the Rede or

whatever, maybe they can see the process in a broader

context if they understand that Christians have the

same problem with different factions within their own

ranks. Which version is "true"? And does it truly

matter?"

Christianity is a lot closer to being a single religion than paganism is.

All Christians have a commonality: Some level of belief in Jesus as a

Divinity, as the Son of God and the Son of Man, as a manifestation of God on

Earth. You reference the Rede, but the Rede is a Wiccan thing, it's not even

*close* to being a universal pagan tenet. So, yes, I do think you're

confusing Wicca with paganism. "Purist" pagans don't bemoan different

versions of the Rede, they bemoan the fact that a tenet written less than a

century ago is taken as a universal for traditions and religions stretching

back millenia.

-- Kern

_________________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:08:20 +0000

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

Subject: Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

Honey, Gremikins is always talking about himself.

Sometimes to himself as well. I think he makes a

profession of it.

Peace! Pass it on!

Arwen Nightstar, W.I.M.P.

http://www.anisoptera.com

http://www.morebirds.com

My life is a crowbar for your

mind. ~Arwen Nightstar

> Oh wait, I forgot. SOME people on this list believe they have the

> rights to JUDGE simply because they were born with a EGO.

> Grem

> And, given that this is a pretty judgmental statement, Grem must be

> referring to himself as well here.

> -- Kern

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:38:07 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:RE: Re:Llewellyn and the Pagan Hillbillies

At 08:03 AM 2/1/02, "Elizabeth" <Elizabeth9566728@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Betsy, this was absolutely hilarious! Do you mind if I keep a copy in my

>journal?

Oh please do! Spread it around like a cold :-) Filk on!!

Blessings,

Betsy

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:48:09 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 08:03 AM 2/1/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>That's nice. You just whine, bitch,insult and bully here in the safety of

>your own little nest. Good for you.

Actually I'll bitch and on occasion insult on any list that I don't get thrown off of or doing so. What I do not do is steal from one list like a common thief and run whining to other lists with my purloined partial posts begging for support.

Neither do I chose to ignore any posts that ask me direct questions and instead spew forth copious amounts of unrelated material as a distraction . In short, I am not a coward, a thief, and a pathetic LOSER!!!

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:53:28 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 08:03 AM 2/1/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

> >I certainly would not run whining and sniveling to my friends like a

>pathetic loser

>Oh! Insults, just for a change. How clever.

Oh.... I see..... so now when I express something that I do not do, (like "beg" or "grovel" ) I am being insulting. Why I wasn't being insulting at all. If you choose to internalize my comments and apply them to your own behavior, that is your fault. You are responsible for your own feelings...not me.

ROFL .... Fish you really have no idea how foolish you look do you??

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:56:17 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: List traffic

At 08:03 AM 2/1/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>> Congratulations gang. We have just beaten our monthly posting record

>> with 4007 posts in the month of January. If nothing else, we are a

>> prolific bunch <BG>

>Your welcome.

It appears that it takes either one serious issue, or one talking jackass to really get people going.

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:23:58 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Gwenny pointed out:

>I have a God sleeping in my bed every night and I see a Goddess every time

>I look in the mirror.

I've seen pics of them both... I'd say that's an accurate

assessment... <smooch> Gwenny? Does Parker still have his horns?

>For the record, I actually do believe in the gods, I think it is a very

>sad, pathetic person who doesn't.

I actually believe in the gods, but I have no problem understanding why

someone wouldn't. I went through a time in my life when I tried to be

Christian. (It lasted for about two months... I even sang in the

choir. The pastor said to me that his sermons and Bible studies seemed to

be more of an intellectual pursuit than a quest for salvation; I openly

disagreed with too much of the doctrine presented to fit well with the

members of that church. I was amazed; he'd hit it right on the head. I

gave him back my choir robes and left.) After I revolted from that little

group, I went through a phase when I didn't believe in anything. I

believed that there was no way any deity could allow a group that kooky to

walk on the earth.

Then came the time that I wasn't sure what there was out there. Call it

God, call it Buddha, call it Kern, but there was some form of higher

power. Then came the mass religious studies.

And then I found the path that put me where I am, now. :-)

Enyo

"It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept."

- Calvin and Hobbes

http://www.paganvillages/com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:36:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Gossip.

--- dragonsfl@aol.com wrote:

> This Scotti is where many a third degree has gotten

> away with so much bullshit. I will go into this

> later but everyone third degree or not, elder

> or not, HPS or not are held accountable for their

> actions especially when it effects community that

> they claim to be a part of (larger community sense

> not limited to SS). You just gave me the missing

> piece of the puzzle Scotti, and now I have to take

> some time to consider how to say, what I have to

> say. Blessings:)

> Love and Honor,

> Cerridwyn Stormdragon

Honestly, that is one of those things I have seen

a lot of as well. "X-Person is an autonomous 3rd

Degree..." Well, if the community acceptance is that

a Third Degree is not to be held accountable, then

no-one will. Don't get me wrong, I don't *like* it as

a standard, and I do not accept it as a standard. In

fact, I am sure you might have heard a rumor or two

about me confronting Third Degree level people about

something I thought was wrong! :-)

Personally, I think the most effective method of

handling this sort of thing is by community

self-policing. In a community where the Covens and

groups are secluded, there will be little if any self

policing. However, could you imagine what a place it

would be if you were working in one Coven, and the

HP/HPs starts treating you like crap or starts abusing

their authority, and all you have to do is walk down

the block and find a teacher or Coven that is more

comfortable to you? I think the intent of that

statement was supposed to be that a Third Degree was

supposed to have the freedom of lateral movement that

she/he could teach in their Coven/group how they felt

best, without having to validate their methods. It

was not, I think, a free license to behave, or

misbehave, however they wanted to do. There is

supposed to be a standard of social behavior, and the

greater community is supposed to guard against it.

Right now we will not be effective because we are all

secluding ourselves.

Could you imagine what things would be like if,

in the South-East, we had several large umbrella

groups similar to Serpent Stone. And all of these

groups had different places in, let's say Tennessee,

Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia,

Alabama and Florida. And if the Elder's Councils of

all of these groups met together and conducted a

long-term planning sessions dedicated to sharing the

Gathering sessions, work out problems and develop

communication networks. Let's say Serpent Stone would

host one gathering in the gathering cycle, and another

group would host one of the others and another group

one of the others until every group was performing a

gathering on it's own, and inviting all the other

groups to participate, and they all did!

Being a Cynical Realist, this sort of idealism

and optimism is really out of character for me, so

I'll stop. :-)

But can you just IMAGINE it!!?

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:04:30 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

At 10:51 AM 2/1/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>At one point Betsy insisted that to be a witch you *must* utilize gods in

> working magick. Kern (I think?) then expanded the definition to include

> dieties/and/or/spirits.

Liar, liar, pants on fire .... my definition of Witchcraft has included "Spirit(s)" since 1974. I made this clear from my first post on the subject.

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:13:57 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

At 10:51 AM 2/1/02, "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Actually, Betsy was using the deities/spirits definition from early on, if

>not the start. What I did was point out that atheists can believe in spirits

>and still be atheists, a point which took several go-rounds before Betsy

>finally acknowledged it.

Well, so far I have only seen one Atheist say she/he was INVOKING Spirits. It is the act of INVOKING Spirit(s) and/or Deity(s) that sets Witchcraft apart from Sorcery or "Low" Magic ("Magic being one of those overly confusing terms). Simply believing in the existence of Spirits in not Witchcraft. I believe in the existence of automobiles. This does not make me a mechanic.

I popped into a couple of Atheist lists and searched a few archives, and it appears that Atheists, at least a bunch of them, do not feel a person is an Atheist if they believe they can invoke ANY supernatural being. In fact, the Atheist opinions I have been reading do not even acknowledge the supernatural.

I have watched as Julia has repeatedly changed what she says she does since she signed on to the list. I have come to the conclusion that she wants people to call her a "Witch" because it sounds kewl. I have yet to see her mention any practice that makes her a "Witch" .... by my definition <BG>

Blessings,

Betsy

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:22:14 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

At 10:51 AM 2/1/02, Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net> wrote:

>Betsy, could you please clarify what this list is intended to be here for?

>I mean, it seems to me that you set it up so that people could rant about

>public Witch Wars or come here to work them out, kind of a service to the

>community thing so rumors don't get out of hand or if they already have

>they can be cleared up.

Correct. And whenever one of those comes along, we tend to drop the terminology threads and get back to business. However, it appears that terminology and individual perspectives are behind many Witchwars, so we are going over that ground too.... over and over again LOL

You are correct that the "atheist" thread has been beaten to death. Julia seems to like the attention. She pops in, gets the topic going again, then finds some other excuse to run away for awhile until her prior comments and actions are "too old" for her to address, then she comes back and repeats whatever she said the first time. We have an 8 year old in our household so I recognize this behavior LOL

Truly though, as soon as something even remotely more interesting comes along, I am sure people will forget the Fish Market cat fight <BG>

So...you got a real Witchwar we can tackle?? Pleaseeeee say "yes" ....pleaseeeeeeeee

Blessings,

Betsy

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:24:04 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Air and Gravity (was Re: WitchWars Poll)

At 10:51 AM 2/1/02, Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net> wrote:

>There's only one test that matters to me... step outside: if you can

>breathe, there's air; if you can't, you're dead. :)

But I don't want to call it "air", I want to call it "gas" <BEG>

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:44:01 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: List traffic

I go with the one talking jackass. And since this is YOUR list, and it's been heavy traffic from the get go, I guess we can figure out who that one talking jackass is... *vbg*

-- Kern

It appears that it takes either one serious issue, or one talking jackass to really get people going.

B~)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:42:33 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

Sorry, sis, I forgot. ;}

-- B.

----- Original Message -----

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:08 AM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Re: What is the purpose of this list?

Honey, Gremikins is always talking about himself.

Sometimes to himself as well. I think he makes a

profession of it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:42:51 -0000

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Academics

> Christianity is a lot closer to being a single religion than

paganism is.

All of the J/C/I are. They all believe in the one god. They all

believe it is the SAME god, just under a different name.

As for Christ, well it a xtian thing. But they all teach from the

same bible, no matter which denomination.

> You reference the Rede, but the Rede is a Wiccan thing, it's not

> even *close* to being a universal pagan tenet.

Exactly my point. There really isn't ONE overall recognized basic.

Although the "Love is the Law" is probably as close as you can get.

> "Purist" pagans don't bemoan different versions of the Rede, they

> bemoan the fact that a tenet written less than a century ago is

> taken as a universal for traditions and religions stretching

> back millenia.

I don't think it's that limited. "Purists" don't like the fact they

are lumped together with the wishy-washy pagans and are forced to

defend their path against the slanted views of NEW AGE paganism.

Just MY given parameter perspective,

Grem

"The Midichlorian"

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:27:49 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 10:51 AM 2/1/02, Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net> wrote:

>>> If I had no care for how someone else took my words, I certainly would

>not run whining and sniveling to my friends like a pathetic loser when I

>thought I had been insulted.<<

>Julia was NOT whining and sniveling on my list about what happened here. If

>you had never had the validity of your road questioned before, I'm quite

>sure YOU would speak of such questioning to your friends too -- a

Well gee Raven, I just said what I don't do. Where did I say that Julia was whining and sniveling on your list?? Of course I don't care how you take my words. If you want to apply them to Julia you must have a reason for doing so. <BEG>

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:58:36 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

In the midst of her sadoequunecrophiliac "I know you are but what am I?"

bitching about My Beloved Kernalite Thwalk, Betsy managed to say something

of interest: "I popped into a couple of Atheist lists and searched a few

archives, and it appears that Atheists, at least a bunch of them, do not

feel a person is an Atheist if they believe they can invoke ANY supernatural

being. In fact, the Atheist opinions I have been reading do not even

acknowledge the supernatural."

I think the relevant phrase may be "at least a bunch of them." Atheists as a

group are no more or less prone to be taken over by poseurs and dogmatists.

Atheism, as a philosophical system, did rise in response to supernatural

beliefs, and is rooted in Scientism (the post-Enlightenment philosophy that

scientific methods of observation will yield all the answers to any question

of value). Scientism, tied in with Skepticism, tends to lead most Atheists

to the conclusion that no supernatural entities exist, but that's not a

necessary conclusion, and in fact, a non-biased analysis of the evidence of

natural phenomena indicates that we're still a long way off from

understanding everything, and the possibility that there are forces beyond

our understanding, with something that we may call "consciousness," does

exist, and does seem to be supported by the data. That's a criticism I have

with the philosophy of Scientism: Too many scientists, having embraced

hardcore atheism, have programmed themselves to dismiss data that fails to

support their paradigm.

The philosophy of Atheism was a response to the concept that our lives are

subject to some God or set of Gods who were responsible for creating the

universe; there's nothing inherent in the philosophy that rejects the

possibility of non-Deific forces outside our immediage ken.

-- Kern

_________________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:02:43 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

Grem wrote: "Exactly my point. There really isn't ONE overall recognized

basic.

Although the "Love is the Law" is probably as close as you can get."

The degree to which I agree with that depends on how one defines "love," but

ok, "as close as you get" works. Most pagan religions -- even if we cast the

net so wide as to include Hinduism, etc. -- do include some variant of "It's

all about love" or "It's all about respect." Even here, I say *most* (for

Asatru, it's closer to "It's all about honor," for instance).

Grem wrote: "I don't think it's that limited. "Purists" don't like the fact

they

are lumped together with the wishy-washy pagans and are forced to

defend their path against the slanted views of NEW AGE paganism."

Sure. I didn't mean to imply that mine was the ONLY thing that purists

complain about.

-- Kern

_________________________________________________________

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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:04:36 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

*rolls eyes* Betsy, did you just get out of your "Debating for Adolescents"

class?

-- Kern

Betsy wrote: Well gee Raven, I just said what I don't do. Where did I say

that Julia was whining and sniveling on your list?? Of course I don't care

how you take my words. If you want to apply them to Julia you must have a

reason for doing so. <BEG>

_________________________________________________________

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Message: 22

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:11:43 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

----- Original Message -----

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

> Ah, but you were the one handing out definitions of witch, magician,

> etc. Thus my question. Just curious to see where I would fall on my

> continuum.

I was presenting *my* definitions of same. I don't assume/insist that mine

are going to hold true for everyone or even anyone outside of myself and my

coven.

> As to what I call myself, I call myself a person. :)

Hmmm. I call myself a whole lot of things: mortal; female; old; grouchy;

bitch; kindly; crone; mother; grandmother; stubborn; contrary... it's a

rather long list, but I'm sure you get the idea. :)

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:15:57 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

-------------------

> Khaire,

> Only the main body of LDS banned polygamy. There were a number of

Mormon

> splinter groups, some of which maintain the practice.

> Yours in the Gods,

> >>>>Sannion

Anita spat:

> I guess I was right after all. :-P

No, you said bigamy was legal in Utah. Duh--it is not. You were

wrong after all.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:23:57 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

"I was already married when I met my new love. I couldn't bear to break either woman's heart, so I married my new love and didn't tell either one about the other. Wasn't that big o' me?"

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!

-- Kern

No, you said bigamy was legal in Utah. Duh--it is not. You were

wrong after all.

Ruadhan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:29:34 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Air and Gravity (was Re: WitchWars Poll)

----- Original Message -----

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

> But I don't want to call it "air", I want to call it "gas" <BEG>

You can call it anything you like -- without it, however, you're dead.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

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From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 387

Date: 12/30/1899

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

2. Re: LDS Polygyny

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

3. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

4. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

5. Re: LDS Polygyny

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

6. RE: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

7. Re: Re: Academics

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

8. Re: Digest Number 385

From: selyndria9@aol.com

9. Re:Re: Air and Gravity (was Re: WitchWars Poll)

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

10. Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

11. Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

12. Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

13. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

14. Re: LDS Polygyny

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

15. Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: Daliattx@aol.com

16. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

17. Re: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: "Yannu Spirit" <spirityannu@hotmail.com>

18. Re: Re: Seen a God?

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

19. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

20. Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

21. Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

22. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Daliattx@aol.com

23. Re: Re:Re: List traffic

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

24. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

25. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:30:01 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

> I suppose we're finally making progress here. What exactly would

you accept as a reliable source then?

A scholarly or historical source. Not a quote out of a book like

BECOME AN ATHEIST WITCH TODAY! from Llewellyn.

> >>>Betsy needs no external validation and neither do I. Read

archives to find out why I am posting here in frustration.

> Gee, I might but I don't really feel like searching the archives for

weeks on end to find out exactly which message your referring to.

This list does get a LOT of messages every day you know. Give me a

list # or a subject title maybe.

If you were someone who had been here for awhile, that did not walk

into the room in the middle of the conversation, I would do that for

you. Being a new member, I think the responsibility to research the

archives is yours. Have fun.

> >>>I see you know Julia's mind and intentions. Crystal ball?

> Gee, isn't that why people purposely come to a list like this in the

first place :-T I guess I'm bored :-P

Or just boring--as in "We have already heard what you said thousands

of times two weeks ago.

> According to Betsy it was.

I cannot verify this. It was NOT posted to the Wasatch Witch Web or

any of the Irish Language list or WelshLearners list I was on. Get a

clue, I am not Betsy's spokesbot.

> So I guess she was accused of something that she didn't do.

Duh, did your IQ just collapse? Thwalk is not on any of my other

lists. She does not live in Salt Lake and I know she is not in

membership to any of the langauge lists I am on.

> Like I said before, I'm not searching through hundreds to thousands

of messages from a couple weeks ago. Give me a subject line to look

for then maybe.

Whaaa waaaa nyaaaa nyaaaaa! This is what you sound like to me. See

above.

> Damn I'm good sometimes!

I'll never find out . . .

> Ok, now I know my next research project. I'll keep you posted.

I am breastless with anticipation. I am sure you will get to it right

after you read the archives.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:32:02 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

-------------------

> I thought you said it was legal. It's not legal in Utah.

> I know plenty of people who smoke marijuana. That doesn't make it

legal. "Maintaining a practice" has nothing to do with legality.

> How the LDS get around the law: Well, I'm sure techniques vary, but

the way Tom Green (the LDS guy, not Drew Barrymore's soon-to-be-ex)

did it was to marry and divorce, so there was a spiritual bond but not

a formal legal one. By my understanding, he only had one "legal" wife

at a time, but he had a whole bunch of ex-wives. (This would only work

in some states: Michigan, for instance, has a law banning someone from

living with their ex-spouse, although I don't know if it's ever

enforced.)

Tom Green is not LDS. I think he is United Apostolic Brotherhood if

my memory serves me.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:32:41 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

>> Well gee Raven, I just said what I don't do. Where did I say that Julia

was whining and sniveling on your list?? Of course I don't care how you

take my words. If you want to apply them to Julia you must have a reason

for doing so. <BEG><<

Cut the bullshit, Betsy.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:38:32 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> Ruadhan's gonna kick my butt for throwing in my centavos, once

again, but...

No I am not, you did not speak for Julia or divine her intentions.

You acted as a witness and commented on your knowledge and

impressions.

BTW, I dont think it was Julia' path that was in question. It was the

validity of the label she uses to describe that path. Kinda the whole

tomato/tomahto think magnified to supernova proportions.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:43:37 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

Tom Green is not LDS. I think he is United Apostolic Brotherhood if

my memory serves me.

Ruadhan

Ok, my bad. I probably got that from the mass media, which assumes all

polygynists in Utah are LDS.

-- Kern

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Message: 6

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:40:22 -0500

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

Subject: RE: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

-----Original Message-----

From: Out of the Dark, Inc. [mailto:News@OutoftheDark.com]

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:28 AM

Besty stated:

>>> If I had no care for how someone else took my words, I certainly would

>not run whining and sniveling to my friends like a pathetic loser when I

>thought I had been insulted.<<

Raven stated:

>Julia was NOT whining and sniveling on my list about what happened here. If

>you had never had the validity of your road questioned before, I'm quite

>sure YOU would speak of such questioning to your friends too -- a

Betsy replied again:

Well gee Raven, I just said what I don't do. Where did I say that Julia was

whining and sniveling on your list?? Of course I don't care how you take my

words. If you want to apply them to Julia you must have a reason for doing

so. <BEG>

Your original statement was full of those childish innuendos that I

mentioned earlier. You took a rabbit punch directed at Julia (boxing fans

will know what I mean) by saying you don't go whining and sniveling to your

friends like a pathetic loser. You may not have stated that she did so on

Raven's list. You just said she did it. Raven stated that Julia's friends

happen to be on her list and she was well aware of what Julia posted.

And as a personally witness to her post to WH Julia did not copy or infringe

on personal property or copyright by quoting or forwarding direct

information to WH. She gave her side of the story, asked a few questions and

hoped for some better insight. Unfortunately I got into the email too late

to make a logical response.

So the point being. This time my comment is directed at you. Why do you feel

it necessary to spew childish innuendos about issues you presume to boast

are fact that are based on no proof. If you were not a member of WH then you

do not know for certain what Julia did or did not do. That is fact. And if

you want to try and tell me that you were a member I am almost certain that

Raven could prove if that is right or not.

But not to get off on a tangent. Who is going to be the bigger woman and get

over it. There is so much to learn. Flames, wars, debates, discussions and

sometimes preaching all lend somekind of knowledge to someone. They all help

to open eyes and make people think outside of the box. They may not change

their opinions or beliefs, but maybe, just maybe, they will finally see your

POV.

So on with the show. I don't think that children under the age of 10 would

have this much free time to nitpick all day long about she hit me, she bit

me, she spanked me, she called me a name Mommy. Get over it. Get over

yourselves.

For Christs Sake already.

Sunshine

(who is not in her normally sunshiney mood today)

AoB - email me babe

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:54:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

--- vampyresire1 <VampyreSire@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry to disagree here. I know MANY J/C/I, as well

> as JW and LDS. They do not all rely on one doctrine.

> They study many forms of the bible as well as other

> available religious doctrines, in a search for

> their truth. And while I do not agree with it, the

> mainstay of the bibles have survived millenia and

> they are the central references.

Well, I hate to disagree with your disagreement,

but I am afraid that I must also disagree! To begin

with, to say there is Jewish, Christian or Islamic is

actually not correct. There are many factions in each.

The Jewish Faith has the Hasidic, Orthodox and, well,

just regular Jews. The Muslim have the Sunni, the

Shia and the Druze. The Christian has the Catholic,

the Protestant and the Orthodox. All of the three

major groups have factions and sub-factions and then

there are also the splinter groups. Each one has

their own theological writings and scholars who

extrapolate on meanings and truths. However, each one

has at it's base a central document, Holy Bible, Torah

and Koran, in which all refer to, defer to and accept

as The Universal Truth. Even if they cannot all agree

on which version to accept. For instance, a Catholic

would never accept an Episcopal Special Bible because

of the claimant statement in the beginning, even

though both Bibles are essentially the same thing.

And to be honest, the only one that has probably gone

through the least revision is probably the Torah,

followed by the Koran, then the Bible. Remember, the

Bible was translated from Aramaic into Greek, from

Greek into Latin and from Latin into English (etc.)

Each translation has incurred some revision. And that

is not to say books which have been written into and

taken out of both Talmud and the Bible, the whole

thing gets more and more convoluted.

> Unlike Wicca, which has gone from Gardner in the

> 50's to a dozen or so different trads today and are

> still constructing NEW trads everytime somebody

> doesn't like the contemporary. Or worse, they call

> it Eclectic with a heavy emphasis on whatever. The

> OLD LAWS have given way to NEW ones. The REDE has

> become a guideline instead of a code for many

> Wiccans.

Well, yes but the laws are designed to establish a

guideline, not to establish doctrine. The Pagan

religions, as near as I can tell, including Wicca, are

designed to make each follower of that particular path

an individual seeker. Wisdom is your own and found

only within yourself. With that as a guideline, then

it is the responsibility of each individual to figure

out a way to find that wisdom. By that very nature,

it must be altered regularly by each individual

studying. If it doesn't change with each teacher and

student, then it becomes a dry study of doctrine,

exactly what many of us walked away from. I have

never heard a Wiccan, in a serious discussion about

the Rede, say it was a code of behavior. Although I

have heard some say that it could be used as such as

well.

> In fact, every-time somebody writes something

> different, the majority jumps up and dissects it.

> They pick it apart to see what's different and IF

> they find something they can use, they incorporate

> it into their path.

Have you ever seen a group of academicians get

their hands on a book one of their colleagues recently

published? It can be likened to a shark feeding

frenzy. :-) And to be honest, I really don't see

that as a detrimental action. I think our pursuit as

a wisdom seeking community should be focused on

absorbing the success of others. For instance, I have

long held that the Celts in Europe did not use Human

Sacrifice. Only recently, archaeology is calling into

question the belief that the Celts did human

sacrifice. I absorb those findings and include that

evidence into my beliefs and my teachings. Why would

I also not do the same thing with the philosophies and

writings of others?

> Many would view this "search for knowledge" an

> attempt to fill in lapses in consistency in Wicca.

> The revoking of the old for something new, because

> it "feels better" or because "it just wasn't me" is

> why Wicca is viewed as wishy-washy and hollow by

> most, if not all, pre-wiccan trads, certainly

> everyone I've ever talked too. Even the OLD

> Wicca denys the validity of the NEW AGE Wicca.

See, to me, that just indicates that the belief

systems in Wicca are alive and growing. Change is

neither good nor bad. It is just different. The

whole point of the Paganism movements is to find what

is right and comfortable within your own soul. It

should never be about presenting a favorable public

image. If it ever got to that, then we would end up

with the big 3000 member Covens holding ritual on

Broadcast Television and forcing "members" to tithe

"for the good of the Coven"! The New Age Wicca, why

even get wrapped around the axle about them? It does

no real good and I think, actually does harm. They

are, for the most part, simply finding their way. So

what if a "newby" picks up a book and reads a lot of

stuff and it connects with them, leading them to say

"I am a Wiccan". Everyone else was at a similar stage

in their life sometime or another. I would counsel

the "Old Guard Wicca", were I ever asked for my

opinion, to approach them with an air of tolerance and

patience instead of ridicule. After all, if you

ridicule the library of one person, and attack their

approach, do you honestly think they are going to give

a damn about YOUR recommended reading list?

> Now, I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing to

> change, but perhaps that is why the Wiccans today

> feel the, all too often, "overemphasized" need for

> standardized degrees and recognition. And

> considering J/C/I religion encompasses more than 50%

> of the world's religious practioners, I won't put

> them down for having a UNIFIED reference source

> within each sect. It's something PAGANISM lacks.

Yeah, but even within those sects and sub-sects,

they cannot agree on what they are trying to access.

Ever drive through some small towns and see two

Southern Baptist Churches across the street from each

other? I have even seen as many as three, fact; Gum

Branch, Georgia, three Southern Baptist congregations

in a town so small they didn't even own a flashlight

let alone a stop-light! I also think Pagans, of every

stripe ENJOY having a huge library of various sources,

resources and examples of a poorly written piece of

material!

> Just MY perspective,

> Grem

And likewise, mine! :-)

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

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Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:58:43 EST

From: selyndria9@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 385

I'm probably stepping onto a landmine here, but these are most definitely my

opinions and experiences. I'm not very PC.

Isis Peace Windsong posted:

> >6. Vegetarians, Vegans, Strict Carnivores, Diabetics, and any others with

> very strong food preferences: no one minds your asking quietly and politely

> "Which

> >dishes have meat (sugar, spices, hot pepper, etc.) in them?" When planning

> a meal for mixzed Pagan/Wiccan groups, it is strongly suggested that at

> least some of the dishes be vegetarian, sugar-free, relatively

> >non-spicy etc. At all times, within and without the ritual context, always

> provide an alternative

> >to alcoholic beverages.

I have a comment to add to this. (From my own personal experiences with

groups) If you have special dietary needs do not assume that the group is

responsible for feeding you. Provide your own meal and share it if you'd

like. Case in point, I belonged to a group up in Seattle and one woman had a

problem with the potluck. According to her, her daughter had severe

allergies, etc. and could only eat certain things. She was furious that

everyone else did not provide foods her daughter could eat. Her complaint

was her daughter never had anything to eat after ritual. She singled me out

especially, since I love to cook and invariably brought something made from

scratch and heavenly, (lasagne, home-made ice cream, tiramisu) Hehehe, she

was more furious when I pointed out that her child's needs were her

responsibility and it was entirely appropriate that she brought her daughter

a meal and dessert. If there were additional foods brought that her daughter

could eat there, that would be a bonus. PC or not, I cook what my family and

I will like to eat and I bring enough to share, those who have dietary needs

(especially self-imposed) can take care of themselves.

> >

> >7. While many people have become far less secretive about their membership

> in a Pagan group, it is never, EVER, permissible to "blow someones cover".

> Do not ever call a friend or acquaintence by their Pagan name or mention

> their membership in a mundane situation.

> >It is also bad manners - and a symptom of social climbing - to call an

> individual by his/her mundane name in a Pagan situation. It always reminds

> me of an extra calling John Wayne "The Duke" at a local bar.

LOL, I've had this done to me on both ends. I'm out, but I like to be the

one who says it. On the other side, as Estara will post the gory details,

I'll only comment here a little. I had the calling me by my mundane name

thing done in a pagan group by the leader of the group, but only when she was

furious with me (or anyone else). She would snidely use the mundane name,

especially in email. Even after being corrected and asked to RESPECT that a

craft name was preferred in a craft setting.

"Touch passion when it comes your way, Stephen. It's rare enough as it is.

Don't walk away when it calls you by name." Marcus to Franklin, Lines of

Communication Babylon 5

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:05:22 -0000

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Air and Gravity (was Re: WitchWars Poll)

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@O...> wrote:

> At 10:51 AM 2/1/02, Raven Scott <siana@p...> wrote:

> >There's only one test that matters to me... step outside: if you

can

> >breathe, there's air; if you can't, you're dead. :)

> But I don't want to call it "air", I want to call it "gas" <BEG>

Depending on what you've been feeding Grythie, that might not be an

unfair assessment.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:09:12 -0000

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@y...> wrote:

> In the midst of her sadoequunecrophiliac

Ok... now look. Sodaequunecrophiliac? I take it 'beating' is to be

construed sexually in the context of dead horse? 'vapulo' is 'to

beat or flog' in Latin... Sadoequuvapulating sounds cool too :)

Holding his head like a stunned monkey,

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:15:57 -0000

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

--- In WitchWars@y..., Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@x> wrote:

> > I suppose we're finally making progress here. What exactly would

> you accept as a reliable source then?

> A scholarly or historical source. Not a quote out of a book like

> BECOME AN ATHEIST WITCH TODAY! from Llewellyn.

****** NEW!!! ******

Fresh from the presses, it's Raymond Buckland's _Gypsy Atheist Magic_!

Learn powerful new, god-avoiding techniques of the ancient Romany for:

- love

- money

- personal growth

- invoking spirits (unless you're the other kind of atheist)

About the author:

Raymond Buckland, recognized Elder and Founder of the widely known

and practiced BTSAGM (BuyThisShitAndGimmeMoney) Tradition of Wicca,

has been writing since he figured out that it was easier than his

previous job as bagboy at a local Shop'N'Go. This is his

11,429,114th book. A summary of his life and original thoughts is

also available as a 20 page pamphlet from Llewellyn.

Shaking his head,

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:23:12 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

Sodaequunecrophilia would be pouring Sprite on a dead horse... that's just WEIRD. ;}

Hmm... so wouldn't "beating a dead horse" be "Necroequuvapulation"?

-- K.

----- Original Message -----

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@y...> wrote:

> In the midst of her sadoequunecrophiliac

Ok... now look. Sodaequunecrophiliac? I take it 'beating' is to be

construed sexually in the context of dead horse? 'vapulo' is 'to

beat or flog' in Latin... Sadoequuvapulating sounds cool too :)

Holding his head like a stunned monkey,

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:22:09 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Raven reported:

> Julia was NOT whining and sniveling on my list about what happened

> here. If you had never had the validity of your road questioned before,

> I'm quite sure YOU would speak of such questioning to your friends too

> -- afterall, it's a rather natural human response. I'd cross-post her

> original message but, without her permission to do so, cross-posting of

> conversations is not allowed on WH

Raven, I'd almost say go ahead and post it but don't! Betsy's paranoia is

way too entertaining. Now she'd really blow a gasket if she knew how she

was discussed on Just Witchcraft.....which is where a good bit of this all

started.....and not by me. It's more fun to let her stew in her own

juices.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:26:37 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

> Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your

waitress!

> -- Kern

> No, you said bigamy was legal in Utah. Duh--it is not. You were

> wrong after all.

> Ruadhan

Kern! God of language in my pantheon. I have a tip for ya, but it

reflects back on something you posted on another legal topic. Ooops!

I think I just proposed something illegal . . . in Utah.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:26:51 EST

From: Daliattx@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

In a message dated 2/1/2002 9:58:05 AM Mountain Standard Time,

brighn@yahoo.com writes:

> sadoequunecrophiliac

Okay, I will bite...what the hell does "sadoequunecrophiliac" mean?

Brenda

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:27:23 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Betsy claims:

In short, I am not a coward, a thief, and a pathetic

> LOSER!!!

You just keep saying that. Repeat it often, loudly, in front of a

mirror....Oh dear! Did I just paraphrase Guy?!

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:27:43 +0000

From: "Yannu Spirit" <spirityannu@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

>Actually I have spoken to the HP and HPS who presided over their

>permanent Handfasting (they were Handfasted for a year and a day

>beforehand)and they didn't recall any such arrangement in that

>ceremony. Perhaps it was in some other ceremony?

I don't know. That's what I've heard from both of them at one time or

another. What I know is that it's done and over with. Both people got

hurt. The end.

Respectfully,

Yannu

_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:30:04 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Seen a God?

Paul Kershaw graced me with:

> The Lost Python Skits

> #412

> [Dedicated to Zern, the Apostle who Wandered Off]

*wipes tear from eyes*

That was beautiful. Simply beautiful!

Encore! Encore!

AoB (still giggling)

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:31:36 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

> >>>>PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in

> The Soup?

> by Grey Cat, Members Advocate

> Manners constitute the only successful technique

> ever discovered by humankind to enable groups and

> individuals, holding moderately disparate views,

> customs or beliefs, to get along together. There are

> things more important than manners; but, without

> manners, its unlikely that a discussion will ever go

> to them.

> Pagan Manners...have to do with respect for others'

> feelings and beliefs. They most specifically have

> to do with recognition of the fact that you should

> "judge not the path of your brother or sister for

> their path is sacred." Manners are also the only way

> of attempting to grant everyone the personal space

> which each of us needs.

If this is the same person I know by that name,

this is all a very nice statement, however, if the

statement is to have validity, it would help if the

person making the statement had the reputation for

living by the statement first.

> There have been a number of attempts to write down a

> list of "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots" which

> will cover Pagan life. Here are several tries made

> by four different people:

>MY OWN OPINIONS

>5. Don't make comments on the ritual, its leaders

> or the amount or quality of the energy raised during

> the ritual unless such opinions are asked for by the

> leaders. Save it for your friends, privately, after

> the ritual is over.

This approach, right there, that is WHY we have

rumor mongers, gossip mills and witch wars! Like the

old saying goes, "If you can't say something nice, say

nothing at all!" if you personally do not like the

ritual, the way the HP/HPS conducted the ritual or the

type of ritual it was, then just say it wasn't for me

and leave it at that. Just because YOU don't like it,

that doesn't mean it wasn't meaningful and special for

someone else. If you didn't get something special out

of the ritual, then obviously it wasn't meant for you

in the first place. Just accept it as that and don't

be so petty as to go about bitching to friends about

how screwed up you think someone elses work was!

> 11. Do not allow yourself to get the idea that you

> know the One True, Right and Only Path! Even if you

> really do have the conviction that what someone else

> is doing is "wrong", "incorrect", "Left-hand path"

> whatever, just don't talk about it. It is perfectly

> permissible to refrain from participating in the

> activities of those with whom you cannot feel

> comfortable. It is not acceptable to express the

> idea that they "shouldn't" be doing it. This is not

> to say that if you know of criminal behavior on the

> part of a so-called Pagan/Wiccan group you should

> not report it. We must also be responsible for

> cleaning up our own act.

I am sensing a little bit of a contradiction

here. In point 5, it is OK to ridicule other people's

traditions and work, but only in the presence of your

friends. In Point 11, one shouldn't talk about how

wrong one thinks the work of another is?

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:31:37 -0000

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@y...> wrote:

> Sodaequunecrophilia would be pouring Sprite on a dead horse...

that's just WEIRD. ;}

> Hmm... so wouldn't "beating a dead horse" be "Necroequuvapulation"?

> -- K.

ROFL!

Quoth the sodaequunecrophilimancer:

"Arise, spirit of this steed, and serve, for I have made thee

libations thrice of the chosen Coke product, yea, even thrice have I

poured sprite upon thy form in offering. Rise, rise, and work my

will...."

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:38:03 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

Betsy proclaimed:

> You are correct that the "atheist" thread has been beaten to death.

> Julia seems to like the attention.

Your attention mean as little to me as your definition of being a witch.

Yet you continue to heap it on me whether I'm around or not.

>She pops in, gets the topic going again, then finds some other excuse to

run away for awhile

Yup. I conveniently had a daughter come down with pneumonia and a husband

go into surgery. But what a coup! Getting a new job! What will I think

of next to escape your rapier wit? Ice storm? Power Outage? Nothing is

too much trouble.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:42:01 EST

From: Daliattx@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

In a message dated 2/1/2002 11:00:25 AM Mountain Standard Time,

sun926@bellsouth.net writes:

> So the point being. This time my comment is directed at you. Why do you feel

> it necessary to spew childish innuendos about issues you presume to boast

> are fact that are based on no proof. If you were not a member of WH then

> you

> do not know for certain what Julia did or did not do. That is fact. And if

> you want to try and tell me that you were a member I am almost certain that

> Raven could prove if that is right or not.

I would think that all the "proof" that is needed is the fact that Julia,

HERSELF, stated that she had went to no less than 6 other lists and Betsy was

currently being reviewed. Damn, this repeating of info is getting boring.

Also,

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

>> Well gee Raven, I just said what I don't do. Where did I say that Julia

was whining and sniveling on your list?? Of course I don't care how you

take my words. If you want to apply them to Julia you must have a reason

for doing so. <BEG><<

Cut the bullshit, Betsy.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

Can we all agree on the term "double standard" here" :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:42:39 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: List traffic

Francis the Talking Mule Proudly Brayed:

> It appears that it takes either one serious issue, or one talking

> jackass to really get people going.

Good Betsy. Have an apple.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:42:44 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Arwennnn nudges:

> ::Gently:: AoB? Khaire is, I believe, a greeting rather

> than a name.

Duuuuh Arwen! I knew that! (After I inserted my foot into my mouth)

I just start saying something minutely intelligent, and then this...

AoB:)

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:44:18 -0700

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

Grey Cat said:

> >

> > Pagan Manners...have to do with respect for others'

> > feelings and beliefs. They most specifically have

> > to do with recognition of the fact that you should

> > "judge not the path of your brother or sister for

> > their path is sacred." Manners are also the only way

> > of attempting to grant everyone the personal space

> > which each of us needs.

And Scotti blasted:

> If this is the same person I know by that name,

> this is all a very nice statement, however, if the

> statement is to have validity, it would help if the

> person making the statement had the reputation for

> living by the statement first.

Not sure what you mean here, my dear, but I know the Lady in question. I do not believe such

an innuendo as you make here is appropriate. And I also do not believe she would stoop to

making such an innuendo about another...

P'raps looking in mirror would illustrate point, my precioussss??? Hmmmm?

Beannacht Bhrighid

Aisling

Objects in your reality construct may be more asinine than they appear.

<aisling@technoharp.com> <http://www.technoharp.com> <http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dha>

Aisling's Airts Recordings~WychWood Tradition of WiseCraft~

Garran na Glas, IOAD~Ord Brighideach, Cill Spr�s - Spruce, Shift 14, Cill Ol�g - Olive. Shift 14

________________________________________________________________________

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From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 388

Date: 2/1/2002

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

2. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

3. Re: Re: Re: Re: my bitch

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

4. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

5. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

6. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

7. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

8. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

9. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

10. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

11. Re: LDS Polygyny

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

12. Re: Re:Re: Re:Fact or Fiction?

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

13. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

14. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

15. Re: Re: Seen a God?

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

16. Re: Re:Re: Re:Fact or Fiction?

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

17. Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: <sun926@bellsouth.net>

18. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

19. Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: <sun926@bellsouth.net>

20. Re: Re:Atheist Witches

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

21. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

22. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

23. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

24. Re: Re:Re: List traffic

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

25. Re: names and pagan manners

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:48:00 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Arwen asked:

>> > How bout

>> > gravity?

I offered:

>>You're not floating in outer space, are you?

To which Atari said:

> That's not gravity silly! That's the invisible earth pixies that tie

> magic cords to your toes and hold you down.

*slaps head in Homer Simpson fashion*

Doh!

> Avatar

You're sure you wouldn't rather be called Atari?

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:48:47 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

> Raven, I'd almost say go ahead and post it but don't!

It's your message, your words, your view of what had been happening here, so

the choice [which I will honor] is yours alone to make. :)

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:49:54 -0800 (PST)

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: my bitch

> >

> >I hear you, I don't feel jumped on, I think yours is the correct response.

> >On the other side of the coin, I get real tired of folks not checking

> >their sources and making things up out of whole cloth (not that you're

> >doing this).

> > RobII

> WOW!! Thank you! I will wait for you to post.

> By the by how do you feel about HERD?

> Ann Marie

Hey now,

What should I feel about HERD?

As to the other thing, have any of your folk looked into the "black

books" in the Swedish Nat'l museum? Much different take on things from the

eddas. By the way, some of the problem is that the stories are rather

differant reagion to reagion. I was always taught that the Icelanders were

whacked, and the southerners had their heads up their asses.

I'm aware that this makes me very provincial...

RobII

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Erica Frank & Rob CarterII

elfwreck@idiom.com

"Everybody understands Mickey mouse.

Few understand Herman Hesse.

Hardly anyone understands Albert Einstein.

And nobody understands Emperor Norten"

-Malaclypse the younger-

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:49:58 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

> You just keep saying that. Repeat it often, loudly, in front of a

> mirror....Oh dear! Did I just paraphrase Guy?!

ROFL Yep, I do believe you did just that. :)

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:53:44 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

--- Aisling <aisling@technoharp.com> wrote:

> And Scotti blasted:

> > If this is the same person I know by that name,

> > this is all a very nice statement, however, if the

> > statement is to have validity, it would help if

> > theperson making the statement had the reputation

> > for living by the statement first.

> Not sure what you mean here, my dear, but I know the

> Lady in question. I do not believe such

> an innuendo as you make here is appropriate. And I

> also do not believe she would stoop to

> making such an innuendo about another...

> P'raps looking in mirror would illustrate point, my

> precioussss??? Hmmmm?

> Beannacht Bhrighid

> Aisling

Hey! I put MY disclaimer at the BEGINNING of my

statement! And if it IS the same person, that person

wouldn't make it an innuendo, that person would make

it an outright statement! With Craft names, one can

never really be sure, hence, the disclaimer!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:54:48 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: <Daliattx@aol.com>

> Can we all agree on the term "double standard" here" :)

I'm sure we can, as there's been a whole lot of that going on, but who do

you believe is holding it up the banner?

Also, curious birds want to know.. are you implying that I've been shoveling

bullshit in this list's direction? If so, I'd like to see it.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:58:08 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Someone who doesn't sign their posts tried:

> I would think that all the "proof" that is needed is the fact that

> Julia, HERSELF, stated that she had went to no less than 6 other lists

> and Betsy was currently being reviewed. Damn, this repeating of info

> is getting boring.

First~ *I* would never use the phrase 'had went.' I'm on 19 email lists

currently. I did indeed ask questions on Witchhaven exactly as Raven

described. Not whining, not asking for sympathy, but asking ~ and this is

key~ PEOPLE I RESPECT for their opinions.

However, on one of the other lists someone brought up the topic of the

Witch Wars list and everyone thought it was a joke. After a few people

described their time here a lot more people wanted to come and see for them

selves. Presumably one person told another, etc.

And this is proof of what again? Oh yeah, Betsy's paranoia. Hey Betsy!

Someone said something about you.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:58:14 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Someone who doesn't sign their posts tried:

> I would think that all the "proof" that is needed is the fact that

> Julia, HERSELF, stated that she had went to no less than 6 other lists

> and Betsy was currently being reviewed. Damn, this repeating of info

> is getting boring.

First~ *I* would never use the phrase 'had went.' I'm on 19 email lists

currently. I did indeed ask questions on Witchhaven exactly as Raven

described. Not whining, not asking for sympathy, but asking ~ and this is

key~ PEOPLE I RESPECT for their opinions.

However, on one of the other lists someone brought up the topic of the

Witch Wars list and everyone thought it was a joke. After a few people

described their time here a lot more people wanted to come and see for them

selves. Presumably one person told another, etc.

And this is proof of what again? Oh yeah, Betsy's paranoia. Hey Betsy!

Someone said something about you.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:59:46 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Ruadhan OSheridan butted in with a question Gwen couldn't stump me with yet:

> However, Gwen,

> perhaps you should ask AoB to prove that love exists. It is just as

> subjective an experience as deity, intangible, unmeasurable. Hmmmmm .

Okay, let's see.

The man I'm dating has been my friend for about 8 years. We developed

feelings for each other last year, started dating, fell madly in love with

each other and are discussing marriage.

How do I know it's love? I don't.

-I know he makes me happy with the little things he does, like starts my

care before I have to go to work so it's warm (I'm in WI)

-Takes my puppies for walks when I'm tired or lazy

-Cooks (once in a great while) mac-n-cheese and is so proud he didn't burn

it so I don't have to cook

-Holds my hand when possible

-Holds open doors for me

-Kisses the nape of my neck gently and softly as he whispers...secrets...

What are the facts?

-He makes good money and isn't a dead beat (been at the same job for 5

years)

-No drugs

-No arrests

-Calls home every Sunday to talk to his mom and dad

-Has dreams, aspirations and goals

-Has never hit me and doesn't seem likely to in the future

-Talks TO me, not AT me

How does he make me feel?

-Like I'm the most important thing in the world to him

-Like if I died, he'd follow shortly

-Like I've waited my whole life for him

-Like I'm someone important

-Like a partner

-Like time goes by all too quickly when we're together, and drags when

we're not

You tell me-is that love? Dunno. Don't know that love CAN be defined.

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:03:44 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

I like irony. In this case, the irony is that the song I've got on the CD played is Placebo's "Special K," where the repeated line is "Gravity, no escaping gravity."

Heh.

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Angel of Bast

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:48 PM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] WitchWars Poll

Arwen asked:

>> > How bout

>> > gravity?

I offered:

>>You're not floating in outer space, are you?

To which Atari said:

> That's not gravity silly! That's the invisible earth pixies that tie

> magic cords to your toes and hold you down.

*slaps head in Homer Simpson fashion*

Doh!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:01:03 +0000

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

Smooth, very very smooth. A tip o' the hat to Ruadhan.

Best flirt of the week.

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 389

Date: 12/30/1899

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

2. The Wisdom of Kern

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

3. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

4. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

5. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

6. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

7. Mary Jane

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

8. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

9. Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

10. Re: Mary Jane

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

11. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

12. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

13. Re: The Wisdom of Kern

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

14. Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "gypsy-witch" <suki_nova@hotmail.com>

15. Re: Mary Jane

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

16. Dirt

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

17. Re: Mary Jane

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

18. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

19. Re: names and pagan manners

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

20. Re: Mary Jane

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

21. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: NeterSet@aol.com

22. Re: Digest Number 385

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

23. Love, smlove

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

24. Re: Love, smlove

From: NeterSet@aol.com

25. Re:Re: Re:Fact or Fiction?

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:09:53 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Someone asked (don't remember who:

> Also,

> From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

>>> Well gee Raven, I just said what I don't do. Where did I say that

>>> Julia

> was whining and sniveling on your list?? Of course I don't care how

> you take my words. If you want to apply them to Julia you must have a

> reason for doing so. <BEG><<

> Cut the bullshit, Betsy.

> ---

> Raven Scott

> aka Corvid Contrarius

> Can we all agree on the term "double standard" here" :)

Can we say, "Pot calling the kettle black over...and over...and over..."?

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:09:55 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: The Wisdom of Kern

Kern, Lord of all earthly delights asks:

> Now here's my question, since I haven't seen it asked:

> How do you define "Deity" (or "God," if you prefer) such that a

> sentient Earth is not a God? That is, what, for you, is the difference

> between a Deity and a Spirit, such that you believe in the latter but

> not the former?

Well....this is one of the reasons that *I* started asking questions of

theists.....I do believe in a bunch of stuff.

Is a sentient planet a god? I don't know. What do you think? As far as

spirit, I would consider that it is what we are when we are not wearing the

body of this lifetime. I would guess that a deity or god would be

something other, perhaps 'more' than the spirit of most folks inhabiting

this plane of existence.

Or~ is a god someone who creates a world? Is Bill Gates a god?

Speak Kern! I beseech you!

Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:13:49 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Raven Scott graced me with:

> Ahhhh crap, AoB, you just made me cry [some of you will, of course,

> understand why, others won't and that's okay too].

*hugs Raven close*

Love you, SG Raven:)

> Yeah, seems I

> remember all those things. I'd call it love.

Really? How does one define an emotion? I call it I'm damn lucky. Damn

lucky. He's got a brother, Raven...*wink wink*

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:17:18 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Ruadhan OSheridan graced me with:

> Snippage of much stuff trying to prove love.

Nope-not trying to prove anything. Stating factual information.

> Sounds more like you are giving a laundry list of why you love this

> person,

Oh yeah-he does my laundry, too. Shrinks it all, but he tries.

> but you have not proven the existence of love. Does it exist?

> What is its essence? Can you prove it exist to a being who does not

> have emotions?

As I posed to Raven, how can one prove an emotion?

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:19:33 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> Can we all agree on the term "double standard" here" :)

Can we say, "Pot calling the kettle black over...and over...and over..."?

AoB

Seems to me like this kitchen is full of pots... and pot smoking... ;}

-- Kern

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:23:02 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

> As I posed to Raven, how can one prove an emotion?

Do you deny that emotions exist? I am not reading anything into your

statement, but I want a clear response to this question.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:25:16 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Mary Jane

The all-knowing Kern stated:

> Seems to me like this kitchen is full of pots... and pot smoking... ;}

So last night I found a joint (for the whole story, visit

http://aob.diaryland.com) and I didn't light up. I'm so damned proud of

myself, yet ashamed at the same time...

Kern...how did you KNOW? You really ARE God, ain't ya?

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:27:35 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Rooty Tooty Fresh and Fruity Ruadhan asked:

> Do you deny that emotions exist? I am not reading anything into your

> statement, but I want a clear response to this question.

Um...maybe?

This is one of them trick questions, ain't it?

Damn y'all! I'm only 8-be gentle and kind on me.

No I do not deny emotion exists but I don't think it can be proved,

therefore useless to someone that doesn't believe in emotions.

AoB (Getting ready to go outside for recess)

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:33:10 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: <sun926@bellsouth.net>

> Have I told you lately how much I love you. *muah*

Not that I recall, no. :)

> PS - Did you get that personal email from me? I am not sure if Outlook is

still possessed or not.

No, but it you sent it to my pacbell account, it might take awhile to get

here. Use either the witchhaven or elbereth.dhs.org addresses and see if

that works.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:38:32 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Mary Jane

As if you ever had any doubts... ;}

-- Kern----- Original Message -----

From: Angel of Bast

Kern...how did you KNOW? You really ARE God, ain't ya?

AoB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:38:53 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

----- Original Message -----

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

> *hugs Raven close*

<blinks back tears> Thanks.

> Really? How does one define an emotion? I call it I'm damn lucky. Damn

> lucky.

:) I find defining many of the things I feel either totally impossible or

the words that come to mind wholly inadequate to the task.

> He's got a brother, Raven...*wink wink*

Hold him close, hon. Nothing lasts forever, but you can always try to make

it last a lifetime. :)

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:41:16 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

----- Original Message -----

From: "Enyo" <enyo@paganportals.com>

> <hands Mama Raven a tissue> Ah, Hel, hon, keep the box. But I might need

> to share the box when my blood work comes back from the lab. :-P

:) Thanks. If I run out, I'll get you another box if it's necessary.

Let's hope though that the report from the lab is good.

> Catch me on ICQ sometime soon, luv. Or ICQ or call.

I'll bail out of my mail program in a few minutes and turn ICQ on [it

doesn't like it when I've got something else going when I start it up.

doesn't mind if I load something after it but seems to think it has to be

first].

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:44:47 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: The Wisdom of Kern

Thus hath Kernalite Thwalk beseeched:

"Well....this is one of the reasons that *I* started asking questions of

theists.....I do believe in a bunch of stuff.

Is a sentient planet a god? I don't know. What do you think? As far as

spirit, I would consider that it is what we are when we are not wearing the

body of this lifetime. I would guess that a deity or god would be

something other, perhaps 'more' than the spirit of most folks inhabiting

this plane of existence.

Or~ is a god someone who creates a world? Is Bill Gates a god?

Speak Kern! I beseech you!"

The Great Kern speaks, causing the ground to shake (well, in California, if

nowhere else...):

Myself, I'd say that a God is an entity that has power over us, for whatever

reason. Perhaps They created the world, but not in my own theology (in my

theology, Xaos created the world as a complex experiment, and has no real

interaction with it now, except to check on the experiment). In my theology,

there are two kinds of "spirits" -- Nature Spirits, which are beings that

live on another plane and interact with us, but don't have power "over" us,

and Ancestor Spirit, which is the energy from which we come, and to which we

return.

Bill Gates is only a God to a whole bunch of impoverished third world

children. To Windows users, he's a demon.

-- Kern

_________________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:45:58 -0000

From: "gypsy-witch" <suki_nova@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Aisling" <aisling@t...> wrote:

> > but this proves nothing. I originally joined this list thinking

> > would be a place to air my side of that whole grievance to

willing

> > listeners, then decided it wasn't worth the effort.

> But...but...but...inquiring minds want to know!!! Who, what,

where, when, why.....????

> Beannacht Bhrighid

> Aisling

I think I'll let James field this one, since he's really more a

wronged party than I am. I was an outside observer who got suckered,

but I didn't have my spirit in the whole mess.

Additionally, a couple of the members of this list already know

Herself in their home town (her home town as well and where she ran

off to when it all fell apart here in Portland) and might have some

things to add.

I just want my husband's medicine bag back. I've already rebuilt my

trust, which is what (along with some books, which I'm resigned to

never seeing again, and Aaron's medicine bag) the situation cost me.

I didn't have money or any major aspect of my life tied up in the

tangle. I suffered an affront to my sensibilities and my ethics. The

coveners sufferred much worse.

But even at that, I've heard stories here that make these people's

troubles sound like a minor inconvenience. It's all a matter of

perspective.

YMM (and probably does) V.

*BB*

gypsy

who is actually being deliberately tantalizing in an effort to get

James to pen an epic...

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:47:13 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Mary Jane

Mighty Kern asked:

> As if you ever had any doubts... ;}

I must confess...I feel left out without a nickname, however. Since Julia

is Thwalk, could I be Focker?

*love that movie*

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:54:06 -0000

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

Subject: Dirt

Thanks for the welcome, all, and sorry I didn't respond to it sooner.

It's a busy time of year for me.

Let's see...dirt! Are there any rules for how much dirt I'm allowed

to dish and in how much horrific detail? Anyone here who's likely to

sue? ^_~

Well, we can always start with Kisma, I guess. I was actually there

during the period when she was developing the "Irish Faery Tradition."

(If you've seen her Tarot deck, I look suspiciously like the Queen of

Pentacles - oh, I'm sorry, the Banrion of Domhan. *rolls eyes*)

During my year of training for firsties was when she was making the

transition from working directly with R.J. Stewart's Faery journeys,

and tinkering with them and calling them her own. I remember the

transition well, because it partly involved adding bits of

"traditional" Irish verse into the journeys that had nothing to do

with where we were actually going, and I always found it jarring.

An awful lot of her downfall books (the "Irish" set) were ripped off

from elsewhere, but to be fair, that seems to be the case with an

alarming number of popular pagan authors. What I found especially

interesting in Kisma's case was that I actually show up among the

steals. Again, it has to do with the Tarot deck. A lot of people

commented that the deck didn't seem to have much to do with the actual

Irish tradition. The thing is, some parts of it *did* have a great

deal to do with MY OWN WORK with Faery, that she had learned from

reading my journal.

The short version of her history, IIRC, involves her rising to fame,

blowing up her third attempt at running a coven (that was us), getting

kicked out of COG (we testified mostly about emotional abuse, they

kicked her out mostly because she charged money - oh well, at least

something happened), signing up with the Fellowship of Isis, getting

onto the Archpriesthood Union there for number of souls served,

offering to write Lady Olivia's biography...then claiming to put up an

"official" FOI website when one already existed, failing to desist

when asked to by Lady O herself, getting the biography pulled, and

quietly fading into the outs with FOI (although it seldom formally

banishes anyone, she seems to be persona non grata).

That leaves out all sorts of fun details like her two fallings-out

with the Farrars (the first for listing them in our lineage when we

weren't connected, the second for allegedly pulling an unethical love

spell on her Irish tour guide during a particularly weird freakout),

R.J. Stewart's court case for plagiarism, and some especially bizarre

things I only have as hearsay.

..But then, I thought I heard from my friend Sel (using an

abbreviation...I haven't plowed through enough posts to know what

you're going by here, but you know who you are, so give a girl a hand

why don't you!) that y'all were interested in, what was it, the TLC

dirt? Or the DCW dirt? Don't make me fish for it, y'all are a hard

list to stay on top of!

Love, Estara Korai

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:59:34 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Mary Jane

Focker it is!

And you shall be listed on the Church of Kern site, which is slowly growing. >=}

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Angel of Bast

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:47 PM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Mary Jane

Mighty Kern asked:

> As if you ever had any doubts... ;}

I must confess...I feel left out without a nickname, however. Since Julia

is Thwalk, could I be Focker?

*love that movie*

AoB

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:10:41 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

--- arwennightstar@attbi.com wrote:

> I am going to invite GC here. I also know her. I

> have never found her to be less than polite or

> honest. Perhaps some confuse being honest with

> being nice?

Oh, Arwen, please don't think I might be

intimidated by having to face that person, if it is

the same person. I have been waiting for almost two

years to have a discussion with that person. Again,

if it is the same person, your experience and mine are

entirely different. There are things I feel need to

be answered for.

And to be specific, being nice isn't a

requirement. Being honest is a requirement, but part

of being honest also requires stating hard facts, and

backing those facts up with proof, and then sticking

around to finish the battle that one starts. I can

state with all honesty I believe someone is an

asshole. That might be my honest assessment, however

it doesn't prove a whole hill of beans and in the

grand scheme of things, it means nothing. On the

other hand, I can say someone is a thief. But if I

don't produce evidence to support that statement, and

stick around through the full of the battle I have

started, then I have also not managed to do anything

but slander the good name of some other person.

You see, being honest has a certain set of

responsibilities. So to does being a "leader". If we

are talking about the same person, then that person

seems to select and choose when to apply those

qualities. It is a behavior I personally find

repugnant. And to tie in with another thread of

conversation, it is a behavior in people who are

so-called leaders in the community must be held

accountable for.

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:09:49 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

> > It is also bad manners - and a symptom of social climbing - to call an

individual by his/her mundane name in a Pagan

> >situation.

Well, this happened to me here, on this list, earlier this week. Even

after I asked the fellow to use my Craft name he responded that he intended

to continue using the name he first new me by, before I had taken my Craft

name. Now on one hand I don't really care, as my name is not really a secret

anyway. However I was offended by his lack of respect and manners. I was

raised to address a person however they preferred to be addressed whether it

was by their given name such as Mary, Bob or Kim, their family name such as

Mrs. Ms. or Mr. Smith, a title such as Lord, Lady, Your Honor, Your Majesty

or Reverand or even a nickname like Junior and to default to the name

showing the highest respect when in doubt. To do otherwise would be rude, I

think Craft names deserve at least the same respect regardless of how you

feel about the person you are addressing. Then again, I'm Canadian. Outside

Toronto we take our manners very seriously.

I always sign my letters in this group "Nehani" and I expect to be

addressed with that name in any Pagan forum. Of course since making that

point clear to the fellow in question I haven't heard back from him at all,

so I don't know whether I gained his complicity or co-operation or if he's

now just chosen to shun me altogether.

My thoughts, possibly Emily Post's as well,

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:13:37 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Mary Jane

High and might Kern granted:

> Focker it is!

"What were you thinking, Focker?"

> And you shall be listed on the Church of Kern site, which is slowly

> growing. >=}

*tears up* Really? You love me-you REALLY love me!

Ao-I mean, Focker.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:19:52 EST

From: NeterSet@aol.com

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

In a message dated 2/1/02 2:02:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,

angelofbast@talk-freedom.com writes:

> Okay, let's see.

> The man I'm dating has been my friend for about 8 years. We developed

> feelings for each other last year, started dating, fell madly in love with

> each other and are discussing marriage.

> How do I know it's love? I don't.

> In a message dated 2/1/02 2:34:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> ruadhan@xmission.com writes:

> >> Sounds more like you are giving a laundry list of why you love this

>> person, but you have not proven the existence of love. Does it exist?

>> What is its essence? Can you prove it exist to a being who does not

>> have emotions?

>> Ruadhan

Seems to me that AoB never once said that she could prove it. She said

blatantly that she does know that it is love. To bad you snipped that bit

out, huh?

Neter Set

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:19:21 -0000

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 385

--- In WitchWars@y..., selyndria9@a... wrote:

> I have a comment to add to this. (From my own personal experiences

with

> groups) If you have special dietary needs do not assume that the

group is

> responsible for feeding you. Provide your own meal and share it if

you'd

> like. Case in point, I belonged to a group up in Seattle and one

woman had a

> problem with the potluck. According to her, her daughter had

severe

> allergies, etc. and could only eat certain things. She was furious

that

> everyone else did not provide foods her daughter could eat. Her

complaint

> was her daughter never had anything to eat after ritual. She

singled me out

> especially, since I love to cook and invariably brought something

made from

> scratch and heavenly, (lasagne, home-made ice cream, tiramisu)

Hehehe, she

> was more furious when I pointed out that her child's needs were her

> responsibility and it was entirely appropriate that she brought her

daughter

> a meal and dessert. If there were additional foods brought that her

daughter

> could eat there, that would be a bonus. PC or not, I cook what my

family and

> I will like to eat and I bring enough to share, those who have

dietary needs

> (especially self-imposed) can take care of themselves.

Some things are pretty easy to cover: it's not that hard to offer one

non-alcoholic bevvy, one vegetarian dish. Diabetics will be okay if

they skip dessert, no worries there. But you can't expect everyone,

especially in a large or open group, to cook or shop with every little

unusual quirk of your personal digestive system in mind. You always

bring something that you, yourself, can eat. That way, you always

know that you at least have that. If someone else makes something you

can also eat, great.

We have a member of our coven - my second-in-command, in fact - who

for one reason or another cannot or will not eat virtually any food

item you can name. She knows that going in. We try to accommodate

her as far as cakes and ale; if we slip, she pretends to eat or drink

and passes the plate and cup without making a big deal of it. She

brings food she can eat, and doesn't pitch a fit if nobody else feeds

her. She knows how hard she is to feed!

> LOL, I've had this done to me on both ends. I'm out, but I like to

be the

> one who says it. On the other side, as Estara will post the gory

details,

> I'll only comment here a little. I had the calling me by my mundane

name

> thing done in a pagan group by the leader of the group, but only

when she was

> furious with me (or anyone else). She would snidely use the mundane

name,

> especially in email. Even after being corrected and asked to

RESPECT that a

> craft name was preferred in a craft setting.

However, this same woman pitches an absolute fit if you fail to

address her by her boob name - oh, I'm sorry! her CRAFT name. (Ya

know, it's from a TV show, she adopted it after her boob job, and she

uses it everywhere, so...!)

I'm sorry, that was bitchy, wasn't it? Gasp! (I'm usually not

bitchy. I'm usually the one who tries to serve as an Example of

Diplomacy. This one girl just happens to get on my last nerve, is

all.)

Anyway, Sel-mystery-girl-who-doesn't-sign-her-posts, that's actually

mostly your story, so you dish and I'll fill in my bits when they come

up.

Love, Estara Korai

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:30:14 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Love, smlove

Neter Set said:

(You know, I want to call you Nutter Butter. I don't know why because I

don't even like Nutter Butters, but your name evoked the deep need to have

one, and call you Nutter Butter)

> Seems to me that AoB never once said that she could prove it. She said

> blatantly that she does know that it is love.

I don't know that you can, or can't. Do I say I love Adam (my SO)? Yup.

Do I believe I do? *Yup.

*What I define love as, anyway. I'm jaded, too-don't forget that.

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:43:36 EST

From: NeterSet@aol.com

Subject: Re: Love, smlove

In a message dated 2/1/02 4:31:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

angelofbast@talk-freedom.com writes:

> I don't know that you can, or can't. Do I say I love Adam (my SO)? Yup.

> Do I believe I do? *Yup.

> *What I define love as, anyway. I'm jaded, too-don't forget that.

I began looking at emotions in different lights after a stint with emotional

barriers. As I have come to see it there are two kinds of emotion, primal or

base and enlightened, for complete lack of better terminology. Love is

enlightened as well as hate, seeing as they tend to opposed. Anger, lust,

envy, etc., are base or primal. In looking at them in this way, one can see

primal emotions within the enlightened emotions. One can rarely have hate

without anger, as one can see happiness in love, but love and hate can be

misinterperted as one of their parts rather than the whole. While anger has

it's easily identifable signs, love and hate tend to show signs of their

parts rather seperate signs of their own. That makes it harder to prove love

is real. Emotions are feelings, thoughts, as such proving them is the same

as proving Deity. To each person the emotion means something different, same

as Deity, but then again I think Deity is a mindset so who knows.

Neter Set

aka Nutter Butter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:51:57 -0000

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re:Fact or Fiction?

You start out by asking the other person for their given parameters.

Within the current dimension? Within the universe? Within this

planetary scope? Within the laws of scientific discovery? Until the

two discussing "anything" consent to given parameters, NOTHING can be

proven.

Just MY given parameter perspective,

Grem

"The Midichlorian"

> Actually, I can think of a case where "facts" can be proven. Of

course, any interpretations of quote X are open to full debate. ;}

________________________________________________________________________

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From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 390

Date: 2/1/2002

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. dietary needs

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

2. Re: Love, smlove

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

3. Re: Re:Re: Re:Fact or Fiction?

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

4. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

5. Re: Seen a God?

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

6. Re: Love, smlove

From: NeterSet@aol.com

7. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

8. Re: Re: Seen a God?

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

9. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

10. Re: Re: Academics

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

11. Re: Love, smlove

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

12. Re: Love, smlove

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

13. Re: Re: Academics

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

14. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

15. Re: Love, smlove

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

16. Re: names and pagan manners

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

17. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

18. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

19. Re: New poll for WitchWars

From: "gweneris" <gweneris@yahoo.com>

20. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

21. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

22. Re: Love, smlove

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

23. Re: Seen a God?

From: "lannasmom" <calberski@hotmail.com>

24. Buh-bye.

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

25. Re: Honest Question

From: "gweneris" <gweneris@yahoo.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:51:47 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: dietary needs

> > groups) If you have special dietary needs do not assume that the

> group is responsible for feeding you. Provide your own meal and share it

if you'd

Hey,

I can agree almost completely with this statement, adding only the

following cautions.

Be very careful, when offering food in a public situation, especially

when kids are present, to be sure everyone has access to knowledge of

exactly what ingredients are in it. Different people use different

ingredients and the results can be disastrous as well as alarmingly quick.

Lard, rather than shortening, used in a baked item can be enough to make

some people quite sick.

Also, NEVER use utensils for more than one food item at a public feeding

trough. A young man of about 16 died on a basefall field a couple of years

ago only minutes after eating a sandwhich in a team potluck. He was not

allergic to anything known to be in the sandwhich he was eating but the

knife he used to spread butter with had been previously used to make a

peanut butter sandwhich. He was allergic to peanuts. Although it had been

wiped clean to the point of having no visible peanut butter residue on it,

it was enough to kill this young man in a few minutes.

Sometimes its not just about "whose fault" it is. Its about making

itelligent decisions and not having to worry about how a disater could have

been avoided.

My thoughts, not yours,

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:54:39 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Love, smlove

Nutter Butter got all brainy with:

> I began looking at emotions in different lights after a stint with

> emotional barriers.

Are you a, "I don't need love so THERE!" type, too? *smiles* We tend to

fall harder, don't we?

*snipped some brainy information*

I agree. I think. Basically to each his/her own, right?

> Emotions are feelings, thoughts, as such proving them is the

> same as proving Deity. To each person the emotion means something

> different, same as Deity, but then again I think Deity is a mindset so

> who knows.

What do you mean mindset? That sounds interesting too.

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:06:20 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Fact or Fiction?

Somebody recently asked if I could prove they existed. I said, "Yes, but not

to my own satisfaction, only to your satisfaction. But, since you can't

prove that I exist to your satisfaction, at least not by my proof that you

exist, my proof that you exist would be useless, even if it *is*

impeccable."

He glowered at me and complained of a sudden headache.

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: vampyresire1

You start out by asking the other person for their given parameters.

Within the current dimension? Within the universe? Within this

planetary scope? Within the laws of scientific discovery? Until the

two discussing "anything" consent to given parameters, NOTHING can be

proven.

Grem

_________________________________________________________

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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:10:57 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

-------------------

> Rooty Tooty Fresh and Fruity Ruadhan asked:

> > Do you deny that emotions exist? I am not reading anything into

your

> > statement, but I want a clear response to this question.

> Um...maybe?

> This is one of them trick questions, ain't it?

> Damn y'all! I'm only 8-be gentle and kind on me.

> No I do not deny emotion exists but I don't think it can be proved,

> therefore useless to someone that doesn't believe in emotions.

Not a trick question. I do think that emotion might possibly be

"proven" someday if we become advanced enough, but for now, they (and

love in particular) are highly subjective experiences, intangible,

unprovable, yet amazingly powerful, even devastating. Emotions and

emotional perceptions cause tiffs, fights even wars.

Deity is much the same. Possibly provable one day, but right now,

intangible (unless you take immanence to material extremes). Deity is

a highly subjective experience, coforting to some, and utterly

transfixing to others.

It really does not matter a lick to me whether a person believes or

not. Do gods exist or are we hard wired to believe? To me and my

personal experience, the fact that something I chose to call god

exists is something I know in a way that disolves the notion of "me"

into something much larger, older and alien than anything I have ever

experienced before or since. However, I am comforted and encouraged

that there is meaning beyond the biological and physical existence

that I perceive daily. For me, it is not just about belief, it is

about knowing, or grokking. I hope that everyone gets to experience

the same thing at some point, in their own way, and make up their own

minds.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:12:47 -0800 (PST)

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Seen a God?

--- Angel of Bast <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

> Catseye said:

> > This is why I won't try to use my own experiences

> with

> > the Gods to prove their existance to you.

> That's a shame! Even if it doesn't help me, my

> theory is there's probably a

> lurker out there that would/could get something from

> your story, your

> sharing.

Well, since you asked, and I feel chatty, I'll tell

ONE story of mine re: seen a God. I didn't actually

see one in this case, but I had more than one witness

that heard him.

Here's the scoop.

One day many years ago I got a comis strip in the mail

from my dad. He's like that. He'll send something

with no more than a post it note saying something like

"enjoy". Anyway, it was a B.C. comic strip. The one

guy was talking to the blond girl who asked him "are

you named Thor because you are the God of Thunder?"

he answered "No, its actually short for Thornton."

"What does Thornton mean?" the blond asks, to which

the man answeres "Son of the God of Thunder!"

Well, my last name happens to be Thornton. I read the

strip, ran outside yelling "Proof! Daddy!!!" while

looking at the clouds and laughing at my own insanity

(I think I was in the beginnings of a sugar crash

right about then). The sky immediately darkened,

there was a peal of thunder, and the rain began to

pour.

After this, I took it upon myself to be as completely

irreverant as I could be. If there was a

thunderstorm, I'd challenge that I could piss harder.

If there was a drizzle, I'd challenge that I could

sweat harder. It never failed to bring more

torrential downpours. I thought it was pretty

amusing, except then the retribution began. I could

not do a ritual without a downpour drenching all

participants. Even in the midst of a drought, it was

too wet to light fires. I got the hint. I decided to

do something in a sort of apology "I really don't mean

to be a bitch I just am comfortable with you" kind of

way. I thought about it, picked a time, and as I

happened to know a fellow who claimed to be raised in

the Old Ways in Sweden, asked him what to do for X

diety at X time of year. His eyes bugged out that

this was the traditional time, told me to roast a pig

but not break any bones among other things, and helped

me entertain my friends and family that summer with a

good old fashioned pig roast.

Well, at the dedication of this roast (or whatever you

wanna call the point where we called on the Thunderer)

the first peal of thunder came from a clear blue sky.

At the first toast and bite of succulent roast pork,

the first drops of rain came. Soon, the entire affair

was deluged in a rainstorm the like I've not seen

since. At the peak of this storm, after some had

scurried to their cars and some were dancing in their

underpants, several people heard the voice come from

the depths of the sky. It was deep, it was booming,

it was impressive. It was heard I am told by the

Episcopalian priest sitting in the house of the sister

whose property we were on. It said (and I remember it

clear as a bell to this day) "Can you piss harder than

THIS, Bitch????!!!!!"

Take it or leave it, the day is imprinted on my very

soul.

This was not the first, nor likely to be my last

significant encounter with a diety. I have to admit,

I have no doubt of their existance. I merely doubt

some of their intentions.

Catseye

=====

I never married, because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that growls every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes home late every night. -Marie Corelli- http://www.geocities.com/har_s_shabti

__________________________________________________

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Message: 6

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:17:21 EST

From: NeterSet@aol.com

Subject: Re: Love, smlove

In a message dated 2/1/02 4:55:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,

angelofbast@talk-freedom.com writes:

> 1. Are you a, "I don't need love so THERE!" type, too? *smiles* We tend to

> fall harder, don't we?

> 2. I agree. I think. Basically to each his/her own, right?

> 3. What do you mean mindset? That sounds interesting too.

1. AoB, the emotional barriers I put up were after a particularly rough

patch. I blocked every emotion I could think of. I didn't want anything to

do with people or at the very least would prefer no interaction with them.

2. Yeah. I believe each person experiences emotions differently, that only

the reciepent of the emotion can name it and only for a the period of time in

which it occurs. After the emotion is gone, it tends to get other memories

and feelings caused by those memories attached to it, there by changing the

way it felt while within it's throes.

3. As much as I think I am going to be "politley commented upon" for saying

this I am going to answer your question in the most personally honest way I

can. Ok, spells are directed energy more or less, right? So if by gathering

and directing that energy we change something to become what we want it to

be. In my mind prayers are channeled energy directed to a Deity. Over time

the energy amasses and there is birthed a Deity. As I believe that Deity

still needs energy as a way of surviving. As one stops praying and sending

out energy to a Deity it slowly loses conciousness. It becomes dormant

awaiting energy to awaken. Basicly because enough people believe in it, it

exists. Now the next part is the interaction with some people rather than

with everyone. I believe that as Deity needs to prayers of It's believers to

exist It will involve Itself in their lives. That is why, in my opinion, a

Deity shows Itself to some but not to others. So are the Gods real, sure if

you beleive so. Does heaven and Hell exist, if you beleive they do, yes.

Can you prove it to someone else? Not with out them believing in it. That

is why it's a mindset. You have to believe that They are real, that They are

involved with your life. Of course this is the mad ramblings of a 21 year

old, so by all means credit it to foolish ignorance and dismiss it if you

choose.

Nutter Neter Butter Set

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:20:08 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Ruadhan OSheridan graced me with:

> However, I am comforted and encouraged

> that there is meaning beyond the biological and physical existence that

> I perceive daily. For me, it is not just about belief, it is about

> knowing, or grokking. I hope that everyone gets to experience the same

> thing at some point, in their own way, and make up their own minds.

I think you just nailed the whole thing. It doesn't matter, really, what

anyone else thinks about what we believe, what we call ourselves...it's an

internal conflict I think everyone goes through at one point or another.

Figuring it out for yourself is the only thing you can do, and should do.

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:24:44 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Seen a God?

Catseye took the pisser with:

> It said (and I remember it

> clear as a bell to this day) "Can you piss harder than

> THIS, Bitch????!!!!!"

LMAOPMP

Oh but that is funny! Terribly funny! I've heard that the Gods have a sense

of humour...I think you "proved" it!

Thank you for sharing-that was a wonderful, wonderful story. If you have

more to share, I'd be happy to listen.

*smiles* I wonder if I'm as stubborn as you are/were that it would indeed

take proof such as that to believe.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:27:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

wrote:

<<What I do not do is steal from one list like a

common thief and run whining to other lists with my

purloined partial posts begging for support.>>

Umm.... just for the record.... this never

happened. I haven't seen anything from your list

anywhere else.

~Toria~

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Message: 10

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:32:10 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

--- vampyresire1 <VampyreSire@hotmail.com> wrote:

I said:

So does that mean that because Paganism lacks

reference materials that they should be created?

You said:

Judging by the simple fact of the arguments here

concerning the simple meanings of the words;

witchcraft, magick, pagan, not to mention the ones

concerning craft, one could say quite possibly.

LOL - yes, I guess you could. My only question

would be: "who creates them?"

~Toria~

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Message: 11

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:33:40 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Love, smlove

Nutty Buddy said:

(As a side note...when I was 18 I moved out into my first apartment which

was in a retirement home. There was a guy we nicknamed Nutty Buddy ((no

idea what his real name is/was)) because during the winter he'd ice

skate...on this little 10 foot by 10 foot pond we had. He'd do all these

spins and turns and try to be Scott Hamilton...he was about 40. I think he

was training for the "Special Olympics")

> 1. AoB, the emotional barriers I put up were after a particularly

> rough patch.

Doesn't sound good. Enough about that?

> 2. Yeah. I believe each person experiences emotions differently, that

> only the reciepent of the emotion can name it and only for a the

> period of time in which it occurs. After the emotion is gone, it

> tends to get other memories and feelings caused by those memories

> attached to it, there by changing the way it felt while within it's

> throes.

I think I getcha here. That's why if you ask twenty people to describe

love in one word, you'll get twenty different words, right?

> 3. As much as I think I am going to be "politley commented upon" for

> saying this I am going to answer your question in the most personally

> honest way I can.

Sounds like a plan, my nutty buddy.

> Ok, spells are directed energy more or less, right?

Agreed.

> So if by gathering and directing that energy we change something to

> become what we want it to be.

Mmmmm...I look at spell casting as taking this concentrated energy and

throwing it out into the Universe, after having specified where it needs to

go. Why or how it gets to where it needs to go to fulfill the purpose you

gave it is beyond me. I think we think generally the same, however.

> In my mind prayers are channeled energy

> directed to a Deity.

Okay, I'm with you so far...

> Over time the energy amasses and there is

> birthed a Deity. >

*snip Deity theory*

That sounds plausible. Does anyone really think we and the Universe were

created the exact same way? I think we all have theories. That's why

they're theories-can't really be proved without a doubt.

You have to

> believe that They are real, that They are involved with your life.

I like that...

> Of

> course this is the mad ramblings of a 21 year old, so by all means

> credit it to foolish ignorance and dismiss it if you choose.

Foolishness? Bah! Sounds pretty darn tootin' to me!

AoB

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:38:30 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Love, smlove

> (As a side note...when I was 18 I moved out into my

> first apartment which was in a retirement home.

> There was a guy we nicknamed Nutty Buddy ((no

> idea what his real name is/was)) because during the

> winter he'd ice skate...on this little 10 foot by 10

> foot pond we had. He'd do all these spins and turns

> and try to be Scott Hamilton...he was about 40. I

> think he was training for the "Special Olympics")

huh.

Foolish Mortal.

There can be only one me!

:-)

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

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Message: 13

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:43:36 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

--- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

<<Christianity is a lot closer to being a single

religion than paganism is. All Christians have a

commonality: Some level of belief in Jesus as a

Divinity, as the Son of God and the Son of Man, as a

manifestation of God on Earth.>>

Granted. But I was trying to stay with the example

first given. My mistake.

<<You reference the Rede, but the Rede is a Wiccan

thing, it's not even *close* to being a universal

pagan tenet. So, yes, I do think you're confusing

Wicca with paganism. "Purist" pagans don't bemoan

different

versions of the Rede, they bemoan the fact that a

tenet written less than a century ago is taken as a

universal for traditions and religions stretching

back millenia.>>

Well, I could go back and find the post, but that

will take some time. Someone made mention of the Rede

in a post in the past couple of days making the point,

at least this is how I recall it, that every time they

turn around they see a different version of the Rede

and etc. I added that to my post because the tenor of

the message seemed to be that there was something

wrong with that.

I do not confuse Paganism and Wicca at all. I am

very clear on the differences, trust me. :-)

I also bemoan the fact that every time I turn

around someone is quoting the Rede as though it has

been written in stone from time immemorial. In fact,

I cringe. *g* Then I sigh and say 'here we go again'

~Toria~

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Message: 14

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:42:37 -0700

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> --- "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

> wrote:

> <<What I do not do is steal from one list like a

> common thief and run whining to other lists with my

> purloined partial posts begging for support.>>

> Umm.... just for the record.... this never

> happened. I haven't seen anything from your list

> anywhere else.

Just enlighten me...are you EVERYWHERE??

Hey y'all...forget the argument. TORIA IS GOD!!! Omnipresence works for me.....

Beannacht Bhrighid

Aisling

Objects in your reality construct may be more asinine than they appear.

<aisling@technoharp.com> <http://www.technoharp.com> <http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dha>

Aisling's Airts Recordings~WychWood Tradition of WiseCraft~

Garran na Glas, IOAD~Ord Brighideach, Cill Spr�s - Spruce, Shift 14, Cill Ol�g - Olive. Shift 14

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:46:32 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Love, smlove

Scott Hamilton graced me with:

> huh.

> Foolish Mortal.

> There can be only one me!

> :-)

Oh but I have no doubts. However, unless you've won any Olympic medals for

figure skating, I will have to call people trying to act as though they are

training for said Olympics "Nutty buddies".

AoB :P

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 22:47:48 +0000

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

When someone does something that rude, I judge them to

be someone I don't want to associate with. I thought the

first to be a slip, but the blatant disrespect in that

person's answer showed their lack of quality.

I am known for asking people what they want to be

called. My partner's daughter is Veronica. Most of her

friends call her Ronnie. I asked her which she

preferred. She told me Veronica. I can live with that.

My mundane name is Stephanie. People who call me any

diminuitive of that don't know me. I will correct on the

first one. I ignore them after that.

I have, in my life, refused to use one person's name

even after being asked. Their given name (I think, they

have so many) was that of a Goddess whom I respect. I

did not respect this simpleton so I used a diminuitive

of her name. Simple as that.

Names do have a great deal of meaning, don't they,

Nehani.

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 391

Date: 12/30/1899

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

2. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

3. Re: Buh-bye.

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

4. Re: names and pagan manners

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

5. Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

6. Re: names and pagan manners

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

7. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

8. Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

9. Re: Re: Seen a God?

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

10. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

11. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

12. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

13. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

14. Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

15. Open Marriages was Re: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: "lannasmom" <calberski@hotmail.com>

16. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

17. Re: Gravity, gravity, no escaping, that's for me!

From: morganlfy@aol.com

18. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

19. Re: names and pagan manners

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

20. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

21. Re: The Wisdom of Kern

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

22. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

23. Re: New poll for WitchWars

From: "morganlfy2001" <morganlfy@aol.com>

24. Re: Gravity, gravity, no escaping, that's for me!

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

25. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:00:21 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

--- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

<<That's a criticism I have with the philosophy of

Scientism: Too many scientists, having embraced

hardcore atheism, have programmed themselves to

dismiss data that fails to support their paradigm.>>

I'd have to agree with you. Scientism is almost a

religion in and of itself.

<<The philosophy of Atheism was a response to the

concept that our lives are subject to some God or set

of Gods who were responsible for creating the

universe; there's nothing inherent in the philosophy

that rejects the possibility of non-Deific forces

outside our immediage ken.>>

That is pretty much how I would define it, though

not quite so well *g*

~Toria~

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Message: 2

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:01:00 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

> Have you ever heard that argument that people that are homo-phobic

are

> secretly curious about sex with the same sex? To further that

argument,

> I've also heard "straight" people say if gay people would just

> have "normal" sex (meaning with the opposite sex) they'd be straight

> again. I've also heard gay people say if "Johns" (straight

homophobics)

> had "good" sex (with the same sex) they'd be gay again.

> There are different people in these categories.

> 1. People that are gay because they were born that way.

> 2. People that are gay one day, straight the next...curious people

at best.

> 3. People that are straight because they were born straight.

> 4. People that are straight because they fear being openly gay.

Yep, I have heard all of the above. It does not mean that any of the

above are applicable to any or all, and it certainly does not mean

that any or all are correct.

> Aren't atheists in a similar boat?

> 1. People that have no proof of God and therefore don't believe.

> 2. People that deny proof and choose not to believe in God.

> 3. People that are searching for proof to believe in God.

> Think about that long and hard and you'll get my point:)

I think I did get your point, and then I made a different one. In

this atheist list, I would put 1 and 3 under agnostic, not atheist.

To me, only #2 pertains to people who use the moniker of atheist to

describe themselves.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:01:58 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: Buh-bye.

-------------------

> Buh bye all. Going home for the weekend. See you on Monday.

> AoB

Be safe, have fun, hon.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:05:25 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

> Names do have a great deal of meaning, don't they,

> Nehani.

They do! And I did not take my name lightly. It came to me, as I have

described previously in this forum, and I spent a great deal of time

meditating on it, consulting with my then teacher and checking with other

people, more knowledgeable in these things than I, including the priest who

has since become my teacher. When I did take the name Nehani it was with

respect for it and with a deep understanding that I was to work towards an

ideal in my life that I had not yet achieved and still have not. It meant

and still means a great deal to me and I was offended by that individual.

Onward and upward,

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:13:53 -0500

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

At 10:51 AM 02/01/2002, Julia wrote:

>--snip--

>I for one believe that the Earth is a sentient being. Why? Because I've

> heard her heart beat. Sounds plenty weird when I say it right out like

> that, but there it is.

>--snip--

>Julia

No, in point of fact, it does not. At least not to me.

I am going to contribute more to this discussion, I just have to fix my

thoughts, feelings, instinctive reactions into words.

Ann Marie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:13:11 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

Regarding your name, Nehani, I have always wanted to ask you if you

have been to Nehani National Park in the MacKenzie Mountains of

Northwest Territories. I read a National Geographic article about the

place over 15 years ago and have always wanted to go there, since.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:14:02 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

--- arwennightstar@attbi.com wrote:

> Scotti, where on earth did I even intimate that you

> might be intimidated?

Just wanted to clear the air so there wasn't any

confusion.

> I know and admire GC. Apparently you don't.

:-) You might could say that! Oh, I know her, but I

certainly do NOT admire her!

> She is quite easy to locate though. I wonder why you

> have had to wait this long to have a conversation

> with her? Of course, she has been busy with the book

> that was just published.

The last time I heard anything of her, she popped

up stirred up a shitstorm and then said something to

the effect of, well some people have asked me not to

pursue this any further. And then she disappeared,

leaving the battle unresolved. She made accusations

without substantiating it. She made claims that were

blatently wrong. She made broad sweeping vague

accusations and then refused to attempt to resolve it

or to address it further. Frankly, I find that to be

about a piss-poor thing to do. At the time, I was up

to my ass in minefields in the greater Croatia-Bosnia

border area. She stirred up a load of crap in public

and then disappeared. I look forward to the

opportunity to face her in public and have her explain

herself. But to try to chase her down in private?

Why would I do that? I cannot and I do not trust in

her to treat it in a fair and just manner, nor to be

truthful about the issue afterwards. Again, if it is

the same person, I have heard too many people who have

fled her organization with more than a few horrer

stories. Apparantly if you agree with her or accept

her word then you are just fine and dandy. If not,

then you are worthless and you get run out, and talked

about badly after you have gone. Much like the

contradiction in the posts she listed as "Good Pagan

Manners".

So she got published? Well, that's good for her.

But that in and of itself is nothing to be impressed

with. It isn't the getting published that counts, it

is the quality that is important. And given MY

experiences, not one dime of my money will ever go

toward purchasing anything from her, nor will I ever

encourage anyone else to do so. Now, if she were to

make restitution for the war she started, and then

bailed out on, and if she makes a satisfactory apology

to the many people she has caused personal harm,

anguish and trauma to, we might be able to talk about

it. Given my impression of her, I just don't think

she would attempt to do that.

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

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Message: 8

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:19:43 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

Hmm... so wouldn't "beating a dead horse" be

"Necroequuvapulation"?

-- K.

Only if you enjoyed it.

~Toria~

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Message: 9

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:23:20 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Seen a God?

My story isn't as unquestionable as Catseye's: Mine does leave room for

doubt as either "coincidence" or evidence of ESP, but...

I belonged to an ADF grove for a while. I'd been estranged from them for a

few months (which, for that group, was a long time... they had four or five

events *a week*). Anyway, one night I dreamt that I was in Toronto, looking

for the Druid ritual and becoming increasingly frustrated. That's when I

realized that K.--, a friend, was also in Toronto, so I decided to look for

her instead. I found her: She was getting married to a God named Aren, but

she was dressed in black, with a black veil, and the marriage was taking

place in a masoleum. F.--, the ritual leader for the grove I'd been trying

to find, was supposed to lead the ceremony, but nobody could find him.

Now, I've had precognizant dreams in the past, as well as dreams where I was

clearly somewhere other than my bed.[1] The dream upset me enough that I

called F.-- to tell him about it. He basically pooh-poohed me. It had just

been a dream, I was told rather emphatically, but yeah, yeah, he'd keep it

in mind.

The same night I had the dream, the Grove had had a private ritual to try to

divine the name of the local God. They'd already divined that the Goddess of

the Land was Ana, and had tried to marry Her to the Grove God, but She'd

rejected it, so they were trying to identify Her local consort, who was

apparently identified with a stag that lived in the forest near the Grove

land. The diving ritual had not been successful in and of itself, and the

people were sent home to see what they came up with in their dreams. K.--,

who attended nearly all of the Grove's events at the time, had been in

Toronto, and so missed the ritual. The reason why F.-- had pooh-poohed me is

because there were others in the group who were "good at" divination and who

were at the ritual, so he wanted them to check in before he did anything

with my "visions."

The next time I saw the group, about a week later, several people were

saying they'd heard names in their dreams, like "Arn" or "Aran" or something

like that. F.-- took it as a sign, and decided that was the name of the

local God. I reminded him of my dream, and he looked vaguely uncomfortable,

but seemed to put it back out of his mind.

It wasn't until some time later that I learned that Arawn is the Celtic God

of the Underworld, and only a few minutes ago (I looked Him up in Turner and

Coulter's "Dictionary of Ancient Deites" [Oxford, 2000]) learned that He's

sometimes depicted hunting a stag.

-- Kern

[1] The most memorable ones:

#1> I had a dream where S.--, a friend of mine, and B.--, her girlfriend,

had been fighting. B.-- was telling S.-- that she was leaving her, because

B.-- wasn't good enough. Then B.-- looked at me and said, "What are you

doing here?" Before I could say anything, S.-- said, "What are you talking

about?" The next day, I was talking to S.-- online, and she was upset. She

told me that B.-- had left her the night before, in the middle of the night.

She remembered waking up briefly, because B.-- had been talking to her, and

all she remembers is B.-- saying, "What are you doing here?", to which she

responded with, "What are you talking about?" before falling back asleep.

#2> The summer before we moved from Detroit to Lansing for graduate school,

I had a dream in which I was in a T-shaped crossroads near a Methodist

church. Valerie had sent me outside because she was trying to study, and I

kept distracting her. So I was sitting in this crossroads, moping, and I saw

this woman dancing in the crossroads, doing pirouettes and such. I asked her

what she was doing, and why she couldn't be more serious, and didn't she

understand how dark life could get, and she just kept laughing me off and

telling me that life is supposed to be about enjoying yourself. Several

years after the dream, I met C.--, and it confused me because I recognized

her from somewhere, but couldn't place it right off. Later, I realized it

was from the dream. Anyway, I just shrugged that off as sortakinda weird,

but hey, dreams are vague things, maybe she just resembled the woman in the

dream. About a year after that, a bunch of us were going home from a

memorial service for a friend who'd killed himself, and the car was tense

with unresolved and misdirected anger. We got back to D.--'s house, and I

blew a fit. A real royal tantrum, one of the worst ones I'd ever had. C.--

ran off, and I just find a corner to sulk in for a while. I calmed down, and

found people, and apologized profusely, and asked where C.-- was. I was told

she was hiding and didn't want to see me. Fine, ok, I needed some time

alone, so I was going outside. "If you see her, let her know I want to talk

to her, and I'd meet her in the place where we first met," I said. I got

strange looks for that, because we'd met some ten miles away, as far as

anyone knew. I was so zoned out, I didn't even realize what I'd said until

later. So I went and sat by the side of the road near D.--'s house. D. lived

one house away from the corner, a T-shaped crossroad; her house was next to

a church. Anyway, I was sitting there for a half hour or so when I heard a

noise, and saw a tentative movement in the shadows. It was C.--. After we'd

talked for a bit, I asked how she'd known where to find me. She told me what

I'd said, about meeting her in the place where we'd first met. I told her

about the dream. She said, "Yeah. I had that dream too." And then we just

kept on talking, as if this were all perfectly natural.

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Message: 10

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:26:14 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Hey y'all...forget the argument. TORIA IS GOD!!! Omnipresence works for

me.....

Beannacht Bhrighid

Aisling

Hey now, let's just make sure we keep clear of who the Gods are around here.

I don't like competition. ;}

-- Kern

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Message: 11

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:25:19 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

-------------------

> Hey y'all...forget the argument. TORIA IS GOD!!! Omnipresence works

for

> me.....

> Beannacht Bhrighid

> Aisling

> Hey now, let's just make sure we keep clear of who the Gods are

around here.

> I don't like competition. ;}

> -- Kern

You are the god of Corn, Mail Sweepstakes and Linguistics. Toria is

the God of email lists.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:25:09 -0700

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> -------------------

> > Hey y'all...forget the argument. TORIA IS GOD!!! Omnipresence works

> for

> > me.....

> > Beannacht Bhrighid

> > Aisling

> >

> > Hey now, let's just make sure we keep clear of who the Gods are

> around here.

> > I don't like competition. ;}

> >

> > -- Kern

> You are the god of Corn, Mail Sweepstakes and Linguistics. Toria is

> the God of email lists.

> Ruadhan

And you are the God of CYA, aincha, babes??

Beannacht Bhrighid

Aisling

Objects in your reality construct may be more asinine than they appear.

<aisling@technoharp.com> <http://www.technoharp.com> <http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dha>

Aisling's Airts Recordings~WychWood Tradition of WiseCraft~

Garran na Glas, IOAD~Ord Brighideach, Cill Spr�s - Spruce, Shift 14, Cill Ol�g - Olive. Shift 14

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:30:08 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

focker wrote:

"Aren't atheists in a similar boat?

1. People that have no proof of God and therefore don't believe.

2. People that deny proof and choose not to believe in God.

3. People that are searching for proof to believe in God.

Think about that long and hard and you'll get my point:)"

You missed, perhaps as part of your point:

4. People who are afraid that God exists.

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Message: 14

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:33:08 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Back to the Topic, Atheist Witches

<<The philosophy of Atheism was a response to the

concept that our lives are subject to some God or set

of Gods who were responsible for creating the

universe; there's nothing inherent in the philosophy

that rejects the possibility of non-Deific forces

outside our immediage ken.>>

That is pretty much how I would define it, though

not quite so well *g*

~Toria~

Ok, I'm definitely too hard on myself. You pay me a compliment and my first

thought was, "But I misspelled 'immediate'!" ;}

Thanks.

-- Kern

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Message: 15

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:32:48 -0000

From: "lannasmom" <calberski@hotmail.com>

Subject: Open Marriages was Re: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

> Gee, I didn't realize you had to work out all the details of the

marriage at

> the ceremony. Is this peculiarity just something you follow or do

you know

> others who do it as well?

> My vows were one thing. The changes that occurred later were due to

growth.

> You do know about growth, right?

> Arwen

Actually some traditions do. Before my betrothal ceremony, we both

had intermediaries that helped us to work out a long list of the

things that we would accept and not accept. I have known people that

put one party being able to get a motorcycle in their contract. Ours

stated things that might seem strange like what kind of pets would be

allowed to be brought into the house and that he would be the one to

clean the catbox until I was beyond childbearing age. Any revisions

to that contract would have to go thru the intermediaries. It might

seem strange, but it has worked well for everyone that I know has

done it.

Blessings!~

Cherie

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:36:37 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Ah, ok, thank you... there's enough room in this pantheon for more than one.

So what is Scotti God of?

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

> Hey now, let's just make sure we keep clear of who the Gods are

around here.

> I don't like competition. ;}

> -- Kern

You are the god of Corn, Mail Sweepstakes and Linguistics. Toria is

the God of email lists.

Ruadhan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:37:44 EST

From: morganlfy@aol.com

Subject: Re: Gravity, gravity, no escaping, that's for me!

In a message dated 02/01/2002 3:01:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, The Great and

Powerful Kern writes:

> like irony. In this case, the irony is that the song I've got on the CD

> played is Placebo's "Special K," where the repeated line is "Gravity, no

> escaping gravity."

Good taste in music too..... that's a great song.

Buttercup

AKA "Urn"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:37:45 -0700

From: "Aisling" <aisling@technoharp.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> Ah, ok, thank you... there's enough room in this pantheon for more than one.

> So what is Scotti God of?

Multiple personalities, one of whom is an Olympic Champion (VERY authentic guise...)

Beannacht Bhrighid

Aisling

Objects in your reality construct may be more asinine than they appear.

<aisling@technoharp.com> <http://www.technoharp.com> <http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dha>

Aisling's Airts Recordings~WychWood Tradition of WiseCraft~

Garran na Glas, IOAD~Ord Brighideach, Cill Spr�s - Spruce, Shift 14, Cill Ol�g - Olive. Shift 14

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:40:02 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

Hello Ruadhan,

I would imagine it is and I don't mean that facetiously. The name

"Nehani" comes from the Kaska, Northern Athabascan Nations. It was at one

time used generically to describe all the tribes in the region you mention

which is about 400 miles northwest of my hometown of Calgary, Alberta. The

Canadian Rockies are where my journey into Paganism really took hold and

will always be my own personal Church.

The Kaska are a tiny tribe of under 1000 members and have very little

written history, however the name apparently comes form a God or Deified

tribal Elder and roughly translates to mean "The Shining One". Nehani

occupies a very similar role in their pantheon that Lugh's does to the

Celts. Many wolves and sled-dogs are given the name Nehani in the north.

Until this letter from you I had not heard of "Nehani National Park" but

here is another coincidence, albeit a little removed. As a former officer in

the Princess Patricia Battalion (I might have this detail wrong) in the

Canadian Armed Forces my Uncle Stewart is permitted to wear the Mackenzie

Tartan. Do you still have that article by any chance? If you want to go

there we'll stay in touch and maybe we can make the trip together after

SingingCrow and I return to Canada.

I had never heard the name at all when it came to me in a meditative

state. Its one of those long stories that are best with a mug in hand but

the name came to me very clearly and after doing some research, meditation

and consultation I took it as my own Craft name. It feels very right and it

represents an ideal I strive for. I do not claim to deserve the name, rather

I strive to honor it and aspire to the ideals it represents to me. I met my

namesake in that first meditation, he took and blessed my athame and sent me

on a journey over the mountains. He meets me still when he feels it is

necessary, rarely when I do.

Thank you for asking and for the new piece in my own puzzle.

Sincerely,

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:43:04 +0000

From: arwennightstar@attbi.com

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

Well, that *does* seem to be a problem in your area,

doesn't it. Perhaps there is something in the water?

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 392

Date: 2/1/2002

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: The Wisdom of Kern

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

2. Manners and the such

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

3. Re: Academics

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

4. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

5. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

6. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

7. Re: Re: Academics

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

8. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

9. Re: The Wisdom of Kern

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

10. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

11. Re: Mary Jane

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

12. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

13. Re: The Wisdom of Kern

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

14. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

15. Re: names and pagan manners

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

16. Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

17. Re: names and pagan manners

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

18. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

19. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

20. Re: names and pagan manners

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

21. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: ruadhan@xmission.com

22. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

23. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

24. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

25. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:57:11 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: The Wisdom of Kern

She didn't beg, she beseeched. ;}

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Erica and or Rob

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:46 PM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] The Wisdom of Kern

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Julia Walkingfish wrote:

> Speak Kern! I beseech you!

> Thwalk

Hey now,

Julia!?! You begged?!? You said you never did that kind of thing.

I'm si disiullsioned....

RobII

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:57:55 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Manners and the such

Got this from another list. Given the discussion on

proper ettiquette and all, I thought I would share!

http://sanfords.net/Pagan_Humor_and_Thoughts/Coven_Rules.htm

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:04:15 -0000

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Academics

The TEN BILLION DOLLAR QUESTION. LOL

Grem

> LOL - yes, I guess you could. My only question

> would be: "who creates them?"

> ~Toria~

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:23:34 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Aisling proclaimed:

>Hey y'all...forget the argument. TORIA IS GOD!!! Omnipresence works for

>me.....

<giggles> Look, Fish, someone *else* is paraphrasing Guy Vestal.

Aisling, that title was given to Toria on another list already.

Enyo

"Karma is a good employer, it gives you notice before you are fired."

--Lord General Caesar 12-6-2001

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:30:07 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- Aisling <aisling@technoharp.com> wrote:

<<Just enlighten me...are you EVERYWHERE??>>

No... just everywhere you are <<wiggling eyebrows>>

<<Hey y'all...forget the argument. TORIA IS GOD!!!

Omnipresence works for me..... >>

<<shuffling paper>> where's that damned code of

manners.... didn't it say something about blowing

someone's cover..... LOL

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

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Message: 6

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:34:54 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

--- Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com> wrote:

<<Complete and total agreement here. So now, I guess

I have to wonder why atheists (not naming any names

here) have such a chip on their shoulder about people

who DO believe or know deity. >>

I've wondered that myself. Never came up with a

workable answer, other than it seems to be the nature

of groups to sneer at people not a member of their

group. Probably why I'm not much of a joiner.

~Toria~

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Message: 7

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:27:01 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Academics

Toria confessed:

> I also bemoan the fact that every time I turn

>around someone is quoting the Rede as though it has

>been written in stone from time immemorial. In fact,

>I cringe. *g* Then I sigh and say 'here we go again'

<giggles> I don't even bother, anymore. I post the links to my essays,

and then, I quit. You can lead a student to knowledge, but you can't make

him think.

Enyo

"I was a vegetarian until I started leaning toward the sunlight."

--Rita Rudner

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:42:54 -0700

From: Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

Probably why I'm not much of a joiner.

> ~Toria~

Kudos and respect to you then, Toria. Even when I join something, I

tend to do some uncomfy questioning and opining.

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:43:33 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: The Wisdom of Kern

....and thus hath the Lord Kern spoken:

> Myself, I'd say that a God is an entity that has power over us, for

> whatever reason. Perhaps They created the world, but not in my own

> theology (in my theology, Xaos created the world as a complex

> experiment, and has no real interaction with it now, except to check on

> the experiment). In my theology, there are two kinds of "spirits" --

> Nature Spirits, which are beings that live on another plane and

> interact with us, but don't have power "over" us, and Ancestor Spirit,

> which is the energy from which we come, and to which we return.

So then my Lord and only God, do you pray to any of these entities? Do

you invoke them to assist in materializing your will?

Thwalk

> Bill Gates is only a God to a whole bunch of impoverished third world

> children. To Windows users, he's a demon.

> -- Kern

> _________________________________________________________

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Message: 10

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:44:21 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

--- Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com> wrote:

<<I think I did get your point, and then I made a

different one. In this atheist list, I would put 1

and 3 under agnostic, not atheist. To me, only #2

pertains to people who use the moniker of atheist to

describe themselves.>>

But if the existence of god(s) cannot be proven,

how are atheists denying proof? This would mean the

existence of god(s) can be proven and atheists just

stubbornly refuse to accept reality. Not the case.

~Toria~

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Message: 11

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:47:07 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Mary Jane

> Focker it is!

> And you shall be listed on the Church of Kern site, which is slowly

> growing. >=}

And welcome to our fold sister Focker! It is a delight to receive you and

may the blessings of Kern be many upon your house.

Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:48:03 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

--- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

You missed, perhaps as part of your point:

4. People who are afraid that God exists.

Atheists? Wouldn't that be like.... Baptists or

something?

~Toria~

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Message: 13

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:53:15 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: The Wisdom of Kern

So then my Lord and only God, do you pray to any of these entities? Do

you invoke them to assist in materializing your will?

Thwalk

Honestly? I've been having a spiritual crisis for the last, oh, three or

four years. I used to be a Lokean, but He stopped talking to me. Aplu

(Apollo) talks to me sometimes. Beyond that, no, not at the moment.

-- Kern

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Message: 14

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:55:19 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com> wrote:

<<Aisling, that title was given to Toria on another

list already.>>

It's o.k. - I am everywhere........ and everywhere

that I am, I am the same.... or some such drivel *g*

~Toria~

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Message: 15

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:56:14 -0800 (PST)

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

The difference in Nehani's experience on this list and

the one I mentioned is that Nehani originally DID

provide his name as that used by Lee, where I NEVER

use my legal name for anything but writing checks and

receiving bills. How much ruder is it for someone to

take a name you've never given and use it than someone

to remain with the name they were originally

introduced to a person as? After THAT one, I am much

more careful to put the bills I get in the mail where

no houseguests are likely to poke their nose into

them.

Catseye

--- arwennightstar@attbi.com wrote:

> When someone does something that rude, I judge them

> to

> be someone I don't want to associate with. I thought

> the

> first to be a slip, but the blatant disrespect in

> that

> person's answer showed their lack of quality.

> I am known for asking people what they want to be

> called. My partner's daughter is Veronica. Most of

> her

> friends call her Ronnie. I asked her which she

> preferred. She told me Veronica. I can live with

> that.

> My mundane name is Stephanie. People who call me any

> diminuitive of that don't know me. I will correct on

> the

> first one. I ignore them after that.

> I have, in my life, refused to use one person's name

> even after being asked. Their given name (I think,

> they

> have so many) was that of a Goddess whom I respect.

> I

> did not respect this simpleton so I used a

> diminuitive

> of her name. Simple as that.

> Names do have a great deal of meaning, don't they,

> Nehani.

=====

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Message: 16

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:10:22 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

> Hey y'all...forget the argument. TORIA IS GOD!!! Omnipresence works for

> me.....

> Hey now, let's just make sure we keep clear of who the Gods are around

> here. I don't like competition. ;}

> -- Kern

Well, I do adore Toria...but being new to the whole diety thing Kern is

more than enough god for me. Besides, the Lord God Kern is a jealous

god...and a damn good slam. So I'm sticking with my first god , the one

who puts out. I'll still send you St. John's Wort though Toria.....but

hey..Kern does 'deliver'

Julia satisfied-fish

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:15:54 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

Hey Catseye,

I agree that your situation was far worse than mine. There were no

allegations of threats or anything like that in my exchange with Lee.

I had no problem with Lee using my given name initially, although he

knew better, as indicated by his inclusion of my Craft name, in parenthesis,

next to my given name. Where I think he crossed the line was, having been

asked to use my Craft name in this forum he refused to comply. That is an

entirely different matter and taken to its extreme is a violation of the

trust we all hold in each other. I don't mind Lee calling me a total ass,

although he completely failed to grasp to intent of what I had said. I do

mind, very much, his refusal to address me according to my stated wishes.

It's not as if I had asserted a title to which I had no claim or even asked

anything unreasonable of him. I don't think it even matters what he

personally thinks of me, or my name.

He was wrong to do what he did and shouldn't do it again. If he's a man

of honor he will apologize and in the future he will address me as I have

asked him to or not at all. That's all. No biggie.

Sincerely,

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:20:19 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> --- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Ah, ok, thank you... there's enough room in this

>> pantheon for more than one.

>> So what is Scotti God of?

>> -- Kern

> Can I have recreational beverages, ice skating,

> parachuting and other silly adrenaline raising

> activities?

> I Am,

> Your Humble Servant,

> Scotti

Well, lets see...if you are 'My Humble Servant' would you please go clean

my bathroom? Do a good job and I'll vote for you to be anything you want.

...although I don't see how a 'god' can *be* a humble servant....but if

you're game the brush is behind the toilet

Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:41:51 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- Julia Walkingfish <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

> Well, lets see...if you are 'My Humble Servant'

> would you please go clean my bathroom? Do a good

> job and I'll vote for you to be anything you want.

> ....although I don't see how a 'god' can *be* a

> humble servant....but if you're game the brush is

> behind the toilet

> Thwalk

Well, allow me to explain. In the Old South, and

in the Antebellum U. S. Army, it was fashionable to

sign ones correspondence as either "Your Obedient

Servant", if you really liked the person, or "Your

Humble Servant" if you didn't really know the person

you were addressing. Seeing as how I don't *really*

know the people I am addressing, I chose "Your Humble

Servant". The caveat to that was if you were

addressing someone of a superior rank, and you wanted

to let them know, subtly, that they had pissed you off

really bad, you would use "Humble Servant" instead of

"Obedient Servant". I know, some people find it kind

of corny, but, I just think the Victorian symbology

fashion was just so very cool. I am a Libra, and a

romantic at heart, just can't help myself. :-)

Now, if I am going to be the God of Recreational

Beverages, it would only naturally follow that I be an

excellent cleaner of toilets. Over-indulgence on the

one hand will naturally result in an extended visit to

that lesser throne room. Add to that, the number of

hours I had logged in as a private cleaning latrines

in my youth, I am sure I could do a fairly reasonable

job! Unfortunately, as I am only a Lesser God, I lack

the ability to translocate. :-/

But hey, I am willing to give almost anything a good

shot once or twice.....

I AM,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

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Message: 20

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:56:51 -0800 (PST)

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

Hey Nehani,

I'd put better odds on not at all:-) In my experience

Lee is a good man. Opinionated and hot-headed, but

good for all that.

Catseye

> He was wrong to do what he did and shouldn't do

> it again. If he's a man

> of honor he will apologize and in the future he will

> address me as I have

> asked him to or not at all. That's all. No biggie.

> Sincerely,

> Nehani

=====

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Message: 21

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:03:16 -0700

From: ruadhan@xmission.com

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

> To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

> From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:44:21 -0800 (PST)

> Subject: Re: [WitchWars] WitchWars Poll

> Reply-to: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

> --- Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com> wrote:

> <<I think I did get your point, and then I made a

> different one. In this atheist list, I would put 1

> and 3 under agnostic, not atheist. To me, only #2

> pertains to people who use the moniker of atheist to

> describe themselves.>>

> But if the existence of god(s) cannot be proven,

> how are atheists denying proof? This would mean the

> existence of god(s) can be proven and atheists just

> stubbornly refuse to accept reality. Not the case.

> ~Toria~

No, atheist have their own reality construct (although they think

that deists are denying reality, mostly). It is the agnostics, those

who dont know either way, that are questioning. If an atheist starts

to question the possibility of gods, then that crosses them over to

agnostic, does it not?

Ruadhan

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:02:58 -0800 (PST)

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Scotti, when it comes to brewing, you ARE the god of

recreational beverages! I believe in you

wholeheartedly!

Catseye

--- Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com> wrote:

=====

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Message: 23

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:30:35 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

--- Ruadhan O'Sheridan <ruadhan@xmission.com> wrote:

<<Kudos and respect to you then, Toria. Even when I

join something, I tend to do some uncomfy questioning

and opining. >>

Can make one veerry unpopular.... *g* I enjoy it,

though.

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

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Message: 24

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:40:02 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

--- Julia Walkingfish <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

<<So I'm sticking with my first god, the one who puts

out.>>

Well, being new to this whole deity thing myself, I

wasn't aware gods were allowed to "mix with" the mere

mortals, but now that you bring it up......

<<I'll still send you St. John's Wort though Toria..>>

I'll still take it lol

<<but hey..Kern does 'deliver'>>

Fed-Ex style or more like UPS? :p

~Toria~

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Message: 25

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:05:34 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

--- ruadhan@xmission.com wrote:

<<No, atheist have their own reality construct

(although they think that deists are denying reality,

mostly).

Many do, this is true.

<<It is the agnostics, those who dont know either way,

that are questioning. If an atheist starts to

question the possibility of gods, then that crosses

them over to agnostic, does it not?>>

I could be wrong but I thought the central theme of

agnostics wasn't doubting there was a god, but

doubting that there was an actual physical

representa-tion of him - but I'll have to check on

that and get back to you. I could be confusing it

with something else.

As for myself... and this may be semantics.... but

I am not able to conceive of *any* entity with the

power to construct all that we see and the miracle

that is life as a person or person-like thing with a

name and an opinion.... That doesn't say it quite

right, but it's close. I cannot give it a name and

humanlike characteristics. My brain refuses to work

with that. It literally shuts down. Which is

unfortunate, since the Qabala fascinates me, but all

the angelic stuff and Hebrew holy names kill it for

me.

I have been told that I have an emotional problem

with religion, I have been told I am afraid to face

the gods, I have been told a great many things.

Shrugs. I can deal with that.

On the other hand, I am a student of herbs and

always have been. There is a life force or energy...

Is this god or a god or the gods? I don't think so.

It is what it is, it is there and that's good enough.

So... what does this make me? Certainly not an

agnostic. Certainly not a deist. To be honest, I

don't much worry about it. But I do enjoy the

conversation. *g*

~Toria~

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From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 393

Date: 12/30/1899

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and littlelambs eativy

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

2. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

3. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

4. Re: Digest Number 368

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

5. Fundamentalist explanations of 'hazardous thoughts'..... -humor

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:21:58 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and littlelambs eativy

>>> No they are not. That is your definition, not everyone's. Most of the power comes from the intent of a person. In everyday life things you say and the intent behind the words can do just as much damage as invoking a deity or spirit. They are not required. Some people choose to use them, others don't.

>>>>>>that *most* folk do it this way.

I guess this is another case of not reading what is written. I did not say *most* people. I said *some* people. I left the original quote above to clarify this.

>>>>Sure you can use no power but your own, but as far as I'm concerned that's a drain I don't need.

Isn't that what you do every day? When your in a good mood about something or mad at someone. You might say something out of anger and with the power of your emotions behind it, it doesn't need a deity to make it go anywhere. Negative or positive emotions do just fine by themselves. The power behind your words to people. The emotions behind them.

>>>Much better to "plug in" to another power source and

just channel it on through.

Like I said, *some* people do this. Not all.

>>>Also for most rituals you'd have to be really good at multi tasking, set wards (and keep a corner of your mind on them plus power drain), build the container for what ever power is being raised (while minding wards + power drain + split mind), and so on. By the time you get all of the bits together your mind and power is split four to six ways. Think of how much more power and solidity you could have if you just

channeled it through instead of making all of it >>>yourself.

Your making it sound harder than it is. Emotions go a long way even in every day life.

>>>Note: I'm not saying you can't do it your way, I'm just saying that you could have a stronger thing the other way. Note: "could"

I agree. But, again, that is your choice and your belief. I think I clarified mine above. If more clarification is needed just ask. I would be happy to give it.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

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Message: 2

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:43:14 -0000

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

> The nuclear power plant DOES feed into the Tennessee

> estuary.......... I mean Oak Ridge is like *RIGHT*

> there! :-)

You forgot Browns Ferry. Doesn't feed into the river but...

But let's not forget the chemical plants that pump nitric acid and

other stuff into the Earth, here in middle TN. Got get rid of those

byproducts someway. Oh and the old phosphorous mines. Nothing like

watching the lakes catch fire from the sludge left behind.

Grem

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:51:48 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

>>>>Me:

Wait a sec, I misread Ruadhan's comment the first time. Ruadhan wants Thwalk to apologize even IF Thwalk meant no offense? What bullshit is that? "I'm sorry you're a thin-skinned dweeb"?

Sure, I think the passage in question -- the "beg or grovel" line -- could have been phrased more politely. But come ON, Ruadhan! Grow a rind and some cajones!

>>>>-- Kern

Good grief! Is that what this whole shit storm/bitchfest has been about? One fucking line that someone took wrong because of the way it was worded. I agree with Kern. Grow up!!

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

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Message: 4

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:30:52 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 368

>>>As I said... I don't see how the State has any interest in whether I stick my dick up some guy's ass. If he thinks it's groovy and I think it's groovy and we're not bugging anyone else, why should the State care (unless they want to watch, in which case, I'm charging admission)?

-- Kern

Good one! Should I call Jerry Springer next?

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

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Message: 5

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:14:00 -0500

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

Subject: Fundamentalist explanations of 'hazardous thoughts'..... -humor

Midichlorian - Standing half way down the bleach aisle at WalMart.

--------------------------------------------------------

Brief as the lightning that in the collied night,

Unfolds both heaven and earth,

And ere a man has power to say: behold!

The jaws of darkness do devour it up.

So quick bright things come to confusion!"

Shakespeare, "A Midsummer Night's Dream"

----- Original Message -----

From: vampyresire1

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:31 AM

Subject: [WitchWars] Re: What is the purpose of this list?

Well,

Disregard the opening description, except for the last six words or

so. It should also be noted, in case you missed it, the only rule

here is don't do anything illegal. And I think the whole atheist

thing is quite relevant, since they include themselves in our number.

What is OFF course is the fact that some have segregated them, saying

you CAN'T be one of us. Insults, supposed insults, inferences and

implications aside, which one of us was given the right to say who

can or cannot be a witch. Especially those who claim to be Wiccan or

any other OFF tradition.

Oh wait, I forgot. SOME people on this list believe they have the

rights to JUDGE simply because they were born with a EGO.

Just MY given parameter perspective,

Grem

"The Midichlorian Ferengi"

> was because it seems to me that the atheist thread is a bit off

> course from what the intended use of this list is supposed to

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From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 394

Date: 2/2/2002

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Left coast insanity????

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

2. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

3. Re: Information was Re: my bitch

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

4. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: athenamorgaine71@aol.com

5. Happy Imbolc

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

6. Re: Fact or Fiction?

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

7. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

8. New here

From: "freakywitch2002" <freakywitch2002@yahoo.com>

9. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

10. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

11. Re: Digest Number 368

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

12. RE: Dirt - Kisma

From: "Herb Mitchell" <hrmitchell@earthlink.net>

13. RE: Left coast insanity????

From: "Herb Mitchell" <hrmitchell@earthlink.net>

14. Re: Digest Number 385

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

15. Re: Digest Number 386

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

16. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

17. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

18. Re:Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

19. Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

20. Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

21. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

22. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

23. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

24. Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

25. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:41:06 -0500

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

Subject: Left coast insanity????

Hi!,

I have joked often that the left coast was responsible for all fruits, nuts and flakes, but what I am hearing now is quite disturbing. I need somebody here to verify or dispell for me wether it is true that CA seventh graders are having to take mandatory muslim classes? Or is it just in certain cities in CA? I have also heard that they are being forced to 'act out' a Jyhad amongst their classmates. Is there any truth to this insanity?

Curious and not trusting the news,

Carl

--------------------------------------------------------

Brief as the lightning that in the collied night,

Unfolds both heaven and earth,

And ere a man has power to say: behold!

The jaws of darkness do devour it up.

So quick bright things come to confusion!"

Shakespeare, "A Midsummer Night's Dream"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:24:58 -0500

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 04:52 PM 02/01/2002, Kern wrote:

> Seems to me like this kitchen is full of pots... and pot smoking... ;}

> -- Kern

What! Rats, I thought I turned the stove off!

Ann Marie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:13:03 -0500

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

At 02:59 PM 02/01/2002, Robll wrote:

>Hey now,

> What should I feel about HERD?

>As to the other thing, have any of your folk looked into the "black

>books" in the Swedish Nat'l museum? Much different take on things from the

>eddas. By the way, some of the problem is that the stories are rather

>differant reagion to reagion. I was always taught that the Icelanders were

>whacked, and the southerners had their heads up their asses.

>I'm aware that this makes me very provincial...

> RobII

If you didn't recognize her initials then I guess you don't like Hilda E.

R. Davidson.

I'm more or less solitary except for the Yahoo lists I'm on. Are these

books on the Internet and in English? Provincial or not you are willing to

give me real information and I am thrilled to learn all I can.

I'm half Swedish and a quarter Norwegian. So this is very much the

religion of my ancestors.

Enjoy the con.

Ann Marie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:44:15 EST

From: athenamorgaine71@aol.com

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

In a message dated 1/31/02 7:58:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, Daliattx@aol.com

writes:

> She was put in her place for her attempt to give new

> definition to the word witchcraft.

I don't believe she was ever put in her place. I think she's doing just

fine.

Athena Morgaine

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:40:14 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Happy Imbolc

Just to set aside the warring and such for a minute, as we see the wheel turn once more and another season of light begins, may we wish each and every one of you health, happiness and prosperity. We have learned much from each other and together we have forged healing by bringing darkness to light. We bitch, we scrap and we get pissed off but let us remember that we are all here because we are united in Sisterhood and Brotherhood and the greatest wars of all are the wars of love against hate, truth against falsehood and unity against division.

There is no us against them, there is only us. So mote it be.

Happy Imbolc Everyone,

Nehani and SingingCrow

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:50:16 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Fact or Fiction?

>>>>How do you prove a fact.... ANY fact....to another person?? How does that proving of fact to another >>>person differ from expressing a opinion??

Gee, uh Betsy, isn't that the whole point some of us have been trying so hard to make to you and a few others here on the Athiest Witch thread? Hmmmmm... You and some others keep asking for proof. How can we give you any you'll accept. We all have our own opinions and belief systems is what it all boils down to. You just said here, and I quote, "How do you prove a fact...." I think that, once again, your own words have come back to bite you in the ass.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

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Message: 7

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:55:59 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> Can I have recreational beverages, ice skating,

> parachuting and other silly adrenaline raising

> activities?

> I Am,

> Your Humble Servant,

> Scotti

Sorry Scotti,

I think you are one hell of a guy and I thank you sincerely for your

part in keeping the world safe. I thank you also for you very real

contributions to my path and understanding.

But, Scotti, by your own admission, you are both an American and a

Southerner to boot. These are both very good things in my book however you

cannot be the Ice Skating God. That is reserved for Canadians or at least

Northern Europeans..............no, scratch that, just Canadians. Sorry pal,

on this point I must insist.

He shoots! He scores..................

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 08:06:02 -0000

From: "freakywitch2002" <freakywitch2002@yahoo.com>

Subject: New here

I'm new here so I may lurk in the shadows for a moment before jumping

in. I just heard about this place and wanted to check it out first.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:06:51 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

>>>>I absolutely never

>apologize if I don't mean it (and I don't.) I just have this wacky

>opinion that people who are easily offended *want* to be offended so that

>they can have an ax to grind. I often accomodate them.

I don't whine and complain to folks on other lists like a three year old running to teacher about the naturally predictable response to any offensive >>>comments I make.

If some people get so easily offended by some pixels on a screen why the hell did they join this list. The name speaks for itself. It gives you an idea of what to expect.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

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Message: 10

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:27:57 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: WitchWars Poll

>>>And my answer to him would have been "and why

*shouldn't* you suffer - are you so different from

anyone else?" I don't find the argument "God can't

exist because if he did, bad things wouldn't happen"

to be very well thought out foundation for not being a

>>>deist.

I have another thing to add to this. Again, not provoke people but to induce thought. In my opinion (Damn, there's that word again!) I think that bad things have to happen. 1)To teach us the lessons we need to learn (sometimes there's no other way) 2)To balance out the good. If all there was, was the good, we would start to take it for granted and not appreciate it. Bad things need to happen to balance it out and make us appreciate the good things we have in our lives.

>>>(i.e., behave better, take responsibility for

yourself and your family, be active in your family,

get up and be productive, love others, be kind to

others, etc.) had much more to do with it than being

on his knees speaking to an entity that may or may not

exist, or simply having faith that there is a higher

>>>being.

I agree on this. I don't think he finally woke up and realized what was important had to do with a god suddenly coming into his life. Maybe he finally just realized that he better wake up and take responsibility before he lost everything that was important to him. Are we saying here that people can use the excuse, "I suddenly saw god (etc. you know what I'm trying to say here)" before they finally wake up and realize they better change themselves? They can use that excuse when their lives go to hell and take no responsibility for their own actions. They suddenly find god and think now's the time to change. I am not meaning to offend anyone here, this is only my view and opinion. I am not sure I worded it right either. I also don't believe this is an excuse either. I have known plenty of people who do believe in these things whose lives have gone to hell from their own actions and they had no one to blame but themselves. I am not saying that the power of prayer doesn't help. I am saying that a person can pray until they are blue in the face but if they don't take action to fix their own screw-ups no god or deity is going to do it for them. The belief alone doesn't do it. Again, JMHO. No offense meant here.

>>>The reason was because he couldn't get

his shit together and was too consumed with himself

and his own personal interests. If it took a belief

in a higher or supreme power to get it together (or

the threat of hell), hey, whatever works.

Exactly my point above.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

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Yahoo ID: panda97045

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Message: 11

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 01:18:44 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 368

>>>Isis? Hon? I think Sannion was just ribbing you a little... Take your bong hit and come back all nice and mellow. ;-)

Ok. (Note to self: Breathe in, breathe out.) Ahhhh!! Much better. :-) Thanks Enyo, I needed that!

Isis Wyndsong Peace

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Message: 12

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:48:54 -0800

From: "Herb Mitchell" <hrmitchell@earthlink.net>

Subject: RE: Dirt - Kisma

> -----Original Message-----

> From: lorothiel [mailto:estara2@earthlink.net]

> The short version of her history, IIRC, involves her rising to fame,

> blowing up her third attempt at running a coven (that was

> us), getting

> kicked out of COG (we testified mostly about emotional abuse, they

> kicked her out mostly because she charged money - oh well, at least

> something happened),

Sigh. I only wish we had been able to boot her. Fact of the matter is,

she resigned/didn't renew her membership before we could do that.

BB, Herb

Former COG NMO

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:50:31 -0800

From: "Herb Mitchell" <hrmitchell@earthlink.net>

Subject: RE: Left coast insanity????

> Hi!,

> I have joked often that the left coast was responsible

> for all fruits, nuts and flakes, but what I am hearing now is

> quite disturbing. I need somebody here to verify or dispell

> for me wether it is true that CA seventh graders are having

> to take mandatory muslim classes? Or is it just in certain

> cities in CA? I have also heard that they are being forced to

> 'act out' a Jyhad amongst their classmates. Is there any

> truth to this insanity?

> Curious and not trusting the news,

> Carl

Check it out at www.snopes.com only partly true.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 02:00:57 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 385

>>>>Message: 9

> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:17:04 -0500

> From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

>Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

>My question:

>How respectful "for others' feelings and beliefs" is it to assume from the get-go that the majority of your readers will be outraged because, clearly, they have >>>no manners?

I made no assumptions here. I simply shared an article.

>>>(When an author starts an article on manners with a display of poor manners, I think it's fair to assume the author doesn't know what they're talking about [unless it's intended as satire, which this isn't].)

It was, I believe, stated before the article itself, that it was the author's opinion. I am obviously not the author. It, again, was in how you interpretted it. Are you assuming you know what I meant by posting the article itself? What offends one person, may not offend someone else. I did not presume to know what everyone else's opinion was. I simply shared something that I thought was interesting. In light of the recent bitchfest if you chose to ASS-ume that I intended it in another way, that's your problem. I didn't write it. I just shared it. I also said that I didn't want to offend anyone. There are some very sensitive people on this list. I've noticed that when someone posts something around here they should cover all their bases. By either saying, "I mean no offense" or "In my opinion". I did not assume someone *WOULD* be offended. I simply stated that I meant no offense to anyone. Read what is written.

_____________________________________________________

>>>>Message: 11

> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:26:52 -0500

> From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

>Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

>I thought you said it was legal. It's not legal in Utah.

Ok, let me rephrase this. I was partially right. It is still practiced. Not legal.

Does that make you happy now? Does everyone have to be so exact or do you all enjoy splitting hairs?:-)

_____________________________________________________

>>>>One of the reasons I did not answer AoB's specific questions was because it seems to me that the atheist thread is a bit off course from what the intended use >>>of this list is supposed to be.

Since when? It's been a bitchfest hasn't it?

>>>>I don't know about anyone else but I kind of think it just a tad rude to waltz into someone else's list and change it's purpose to suit your own whim.... and then drag a whole bunch of other people over here to >>>keep it going like you want it to be.

I already stated that *I* joined from morbid curiousity. I haven't been disappointed.

_____________________________________________________

>>>>I am neither a stage magician nor a GD/OTO clone. I don't think I would be called a witch. What (in

>> Ravenworld) am I?

Is anyone thinking what I am? "Harry Potter" anyone.

_____________________________________________________

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

I have a list also here at this site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

I have a community on msn communities also:

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I moderate this one with AoB:

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Shop at my online mall! Have fun!

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Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 02:51:40 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 386

>>>>What I do not do is steal from one list like a common thief and run whining to other lists with my purloined partial posts begging for support.

I thought it was already established that she didn't do that.

>>>>In short, I am not a coward, a thief, and a pathetic LOSER!!!

No, just a pathetic bully who has nothing better to do with her time than sling insults at people. Have you ever heard one rule of most mailing lists that said, "Attack the idea, not the person". Name calling is a direct attack of the person. You don't like what she has said. You don't know her. Name calling is uncalled for. To think, this coming from the list owner herself. Hmmmm......! :-(

>>>>>Liar, liar, pants on fire

Gee Betsy, I hear this a lot at home. From my 7 and 10 year old boys.

>>>>>>I go with the one talking jackass. And since this is YOUR list, and it's been heavy traffic from the get go, I guess we can figure out who that one talking jackass is... *vbg*

>-- Kern

ROTFLMAO Good one Kern!

>>>(Betsy)If I had no care for how someone else took my words, I certainly would not run whining and sniveling to my friends like a pathetic loser when I

>>thought I had been insulted.<<

>>(Raven)Julia was NOT whining and sniveling on my list about what happened here. If you had never had the validity of your road questioned before, I'm quite

>>sure YOU would speak of such questioning to your friends too

>>>(Betsy again)>Well gee Raven, I just said what I don't do. Where did I say that Julia was whining and sniveling on your list??

Betsy, didn't you just state that you didn't say that Julia was whining and sniveling on other lists? Up above I seem to remember you saying that exact thing. I'm confused now (scratches head) hmmmmm

>>>Anita spat:

>> I guess I was right after all. :-P

>No, you said bigamy was legal in Utah. Duh--it is not. You were

>wrong after all.

I already commented on this in a previous post so I'll leave this one alone (for now)

>>>>>Subject: Re: LDS Polygyny

>"I was already married when I met my new love. I couldn't bear to break either woman's heart, so I married my new love and didn't tell either one about the other. Wasn't that big o' me?"

>Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!

>-- Kern

Cute! Very cute!

>>>>

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

I have a list also here at this site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

I have a community on msn communities also:

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I moderate this one with AoB:

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Shop at my online mall! Have fun!

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:11:03 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Scotti lured:

> But hey, I am willing to give almost anything a good

> shot once or twice.....

At least! I like that attitude and you gave an excellent answer! You're a

keeper. Welcome to the world of Kernal delights!

Thwak

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:11:10 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Scotti lured:

> But hey, I am willing to give almost anything a good

> shot once or twice.....

At least! I like that attitude and you gave an excellent answer! You're a

keeper. Welcome to the world of Kernal delights!

Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 04:45:23 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re: What is the purpose of this list?

At 01:45 PM 2/1/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>Yup. I conveniently had a daughter come down with pneumonia and a husband

>go into surgery. But what a coup! Getting a new job! What will I think

>of next to escape your rapier wit? Ice storm? Power Outage? Nothing is

>too much trouble.

I'm sure you'll think of something LOL

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 05:32:01 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 04:52 PM 2/1/02, "Angel of Bast" <angelofbast@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>Can we say, "Pot calling the kettle black over...and over...and over..."?

Exactly...except that I did it intentionally to point out how Julia and her suck up club attack someone for doing the EXACT same thing Julia does. As I said from the beginning of this flame fest. Julia will get exactly what she gives from me.

I think I made my point. All Raven could manage to mutter was "cut the bullshit" and Julia responded in her usual asinine, dribble spewing, pedantic, slack jawed, superficial, low brow, jobbernowl, obtuse, fashion.

The rest of Julia's peanut gallery didn't even seem realize that I was mimicking the style of their boorish, repellant, graceless, odious, underbred, bedizened harridan ...which does not surprise me in the least :-0

Unlike certain Yankees, most Southerners don't pretend to be too stupid to know when they insult someone ;-)

You know.... I am thinking that it about time to Filk the Fish <BG>

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 05:40:37 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

At 04:52 PM 2/1/02, "gypsy-witch" <suki_nova@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I just want my husband's medicine bag back.

Ahhhhh ...YEAH!!! What kind of a slime ball would keep someone's medicine bag??

Gezzzz... talk about some serious negative energy. I once had a guy try to punch me, then he puked on me, my dog, and my golf cart, and I STILL spent half the next morning trying to track him down because we found his medicine pouch later when we were cleaning up in the daylight :-/

Details???

Blessings,

Betsy

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:16:40 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

Toria:

> Well, being new to this whole deity thing myself, I

> wasn't aware gods were allowed to "mix with" the mere

> mortals, but now that you bring it up......

Yeah, this is my first experience with a god too so I just take my cues

from him. If he wants to dance~ we dance....etc., etc., etc......

Lord Kern revealed a picture of his 'Staff of Satan' before you arrived.

Perhaps we could prevail upon his largesse to repost it for your viewing

pleasure.

Hail Creamed Corn!

Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 03:27:06 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- SingingCrow <singcrow@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Sorry Scotti,

> But, Scotti, by your own admission, you are both

> an American and a Southerner to boot. These are both

> very good things in my book however you cannot be

> the Ice Skating God. That is reserved for Canadians

> or at least Northern Europeans..............no,

> scratch that, just Canadians. Sorry pal,

> on this point I must insist.

> Nehani

But...

In my Other Incarnation as "Scott Hamilton", I won

Gold Medals!!!

C'mon now, that's GOTTA count for something!

:-)

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:30:16 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Someone who just CANNOT stop talking about me wrote:

.....a series of meaningless insults

Then further hallucinated:

> Unlike certain Yankees, most Southerners don't pretend to be too stupid

> to know when they insult someone ;-)

Hmm...that's right. You said something like that before....for the record,

and since you obviously DON"T know, I've lived all over the US and

Canada. I do indeed currently live on a mountain in Maine, but as for

being a 'Yankee,' I seriously doubt that the locals would consider me

that. You seem to have a recurring need to classify and pigeon hole

pleople and ideas. If your going to do that you could at least get a

little information first.

> You know.... I am thinking that it about time to Filk the Fish <BG>

Seeing as how you can't get me off of your mind, that's not surprising.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 03:35:45 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

--- "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

wrote:

> Gezzzz... talk about some serious negative energy.

> I once had a guy try to punch me, then he puked on

> me, my dog, and my golf cart, and I STILL spent half

> the next morning trying to track him down because we

> found his medicine pouch later when we were cleaning

> up in the daylight :-/

> Betsy

Betsy! You MUST have been getting really soft! In my

parts, we can take somebody swinging at us or even

puking on us, our golf cart and even our pick-up

truck! But to puke on ones DOG! That there's a

shootin' offense! Somebody get a rope and save the

bullet! :-)

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:37:22 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

> Isis observed:

> Good grief! Is that what this whole shit storm/bitchfest has been

> about? One fucking line that someone took wrong because of the way it

> was worded. I agree with Kern. Grow up!!

On the surface that's how it's being framed, but the bottom line is that

Betsy hasn't been able to shove her definition of who gets to be a witch

down my and a few other throats. For some reason this really bothers

her. Other people have had various opinions but she's become obsessed with

me. She's so wound up now that she just can't let go. Kind of sad really.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 395

Date: 12/30/1899

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Digest Number 387

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

2. Re:Dirt

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

3. Re: Re: Fact or Fiction?

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

4. Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

5. Re: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

6. Re: names and pagan manners

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

7. Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

8. Re:Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

9. Re:Re: Digest Number 386

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

10. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

11. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

12. Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

13. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

14. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

15. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

16. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

17. Good for the goose...

From: "Julie Keegan" <majamoo@ozemail.com.au>

18. Re: Re: Re: Fact or Fiction?

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

19. Re: Digest Number 386

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

20. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

21. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

22. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

23. Re: Digest Number 394

From: TxSueMom@aol.com

24. Re: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

25. Oldie but Goodie

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:40:27 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 387

>>>>>A scholarly or historical source. Not a quote out of a book like BECOME AN ATHEIST WITCH TODAY! from Llewellyn.

Excuse me, did I ever say that I read Llewellyn? If so, can you give me a message # where I stated this?

>>>>Read archives to find out why I am posting here in frustration.

I just got an image in my head of you stamping your foot on the ground like a child who isn't getting their way. :-,

>>>>>If you were someone who had been here for awhile, that did not walk into the room in the middle of the conversation, I would do that for you.

Aren't you the one saying I should read the original message? Hmmmmm! How can I do that unless I know the subject line? You are no help at all. It was a simple question (asking for the subject line of a message *you* want me to read)

>>>Being a new member, I think the responsibility to research the archives is yours. Have fun.

Are you shitting me? With the volume of this list. That's ok. I don't need to see it.

>>>>Or just boring--as in "We have already heard what you said thousands of times two weeks ago.

Name calling. Hmmmm. I expected no less from you. You really do follow in Betsy's footsteps on this don't you? |-)

>>>>It was NOT posted to the Wasatch Witch Web or

>any of the Irish Language list or WelshLearners list I was on.

It was not posted to WitchHaven either.

>>>>Get a clue, I am not Betsy's spokesbot.

No just her cheerleader. Still got that pom-pom on your desk?

>>>>Thwalk is not on any of my other lists. She does not live in Salt Lake and I know she is not in

>membership to any of the langauge lists I am on.

I was hoping Betsy would see that post. To know she accused her of something unnecessarily. I don't think Betsy is on any of Julia's other lists either. Sorry if you thought I directed that statement at you. It was in reply to your post but directed more toward Betsy.

>>>>>Whaaa waaaa nyaaaa nyaaaaa! This is what you sound like to me. See above.

If you wouldn't repeat yourself, I wouldn't either. I was responding to you. %-6

>>>>Damn I'm good sometimes!

>I'll never find out . . .

Scary thought! I wouldn't want you to. Thanks for the laugh though |-D My keyboard really appreciated the cleaning it just received from my ice water.

>>>>>I am breastless with anticipation. I am sure you will get to it right after you read the archives.

If that's the case you'll be hearing from me in about 6 months.

_____________________________________________________

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

I have a list also here at this site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

I have a community on msn communities also:

http:http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

I moderate this one with AoB:

AngelicMagick-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Shop at my online mall! Have fun!

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 05:53:03 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Dirt

At 04:52 PM 2/1/02, "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Let's see...dirt! Are there any rules for how much dirt I'm allowed

>to dish and in how much horrific detail?

This list prefers minute details delivered with excruciating accuracy.

>Anyone here who's likely to

>sue? ^_~

Hmmm.... I wonder if I should but up our official disclaimer??

Legal Disclaimer:

It's not our fault! The little voices made us do it!. If we had sense we'd be dangerous! All stories are the opinion of their author, who may or may not be wrapped too tight. We were potty trained too early. We ate too many twinkies! The dog ate our edited version. We were just standing here minding our own business when this mysterious dude walked up and handed us this story Officer Honest!

That said, you are confirming the Kisma rumors I have been hearing for years. I have never been able to get clear details of the lawsuit Stewart filed. As I understand it, RJ and Kisma had a personal relationship? Her claim was basically that the stuff in the books was written in the bedroom?? In other words...shared work??

B`)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 06:25:03 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Fact or Fiction?

At 06:37 AM 2/2/02, "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com> wrote:

>Gee, uh Betsy, isn't that the whole point some of us have been trying so hard to make to you and a few others here on the Athiest Witch thread? Hmmmmm...

Ahhh... NO

>You just said here, and I quote, "How do you prove a fact...." I think that, once again, your own words have come back to bite you in the ass.

Gee...and maybe if you read the archives before jumping into a thread, you would realize how wrong you are. What part of "BY MY DEFINITION, Julia is not a Witch" do you not understand?? Would you please take the time to review what was actually said before you waste more bandwidth on redundant posts??

Oh.... and while we are not on the subject, your 25 line billboard of a signature file is annoying and in very poor taste. Your commercial message is longer then most of your posts.

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 06:37:45 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 06:37 AM 2/2/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>> Isis observed:

>> Good grief! Is that what this whole shit storm/bitchfest has been

>> about? One fucking line that someone took wrong because of the way it

>> was worded. I agree with Kern. Grow up!!

>On the surface that's how it's being framed, but the bottom line is that

>Julia hasn't been able to shove her definition of who gets to be a witch

>down my and a few other throats. For some reason this really bothers

>her. Other people have had various opinions but she's become obsessed with

>me. She's so wound up now that she just can't let go. Kind of sad really.

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:44:55 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

bt quipped:

(y'know, I still want to give you some silly li'l pet name for those

initials... Kinda like calling AoB Angel of Brats)

>About the author:

>Raymond Buckland, recognized Elder and Founder of the widely known

>and practiced BTSAGM (BuyThisShitAndGimmeMoney) Tradition of Wicca,

This is too fucking funny!

May I put this up in the humor/filk section on my site?

And may I call you Big Turkey? <smooch>

Enyo (who is sick in every sense of the word, and getting silly from the drugs)

"She's sick and twisted. I admire that in a woman."

-- Marquis de Sade

ICQ: 136952092 AIM: Enyo War Goddess

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 04:26:54 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

----- Original Message -----

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

> Well, this happened to me here, on this list, earlier this week. Even

> after I asked the fellow to use my Craft name he responded that he

intended

> to continue using the name he first new me by, before I had taken my Craft

> name. Now on one hand I don't really care, as my name is not really a

secret

> anyway. However I was offended by his lack of respect and manners. I was

> raised to address a person however they preferred to be addressed whether

> was by their given name such as Mary, Bob or Kim, their family name such

> Mrs. Ms. or Mr. Smith, a title such as Lord, Lady, Your Honor, Your

Majesty

> or Reverand or even a nickname like Junior and to default to the name

> showing the highest respect when in doubt. To do otherwise would be rude,

> think Craft names deserve at least the same respect regardless of how you

> feel about the person you are addressing. Then again, I'm Canadian.

Outside

> Toronto we take our manners very seriously.

<snip>

Hmmmm. Damn. Thanks, Nehani, for posting this. While I don't have a

problem remembering how much it irritates me to have people refuse to call

me by my chosen name, I have, myself, not all that long ago either, refused

to grant due respect to another by using the name she now prefers.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 06:52:59 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 06:37 AM 2/2/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>Hmm...that's right. You said something like that before....for the record,

>and since you obviously DON"T know, I've lived all over the US and

>Canada. I do indeed currently live on a mountain in Maine, but as for

>being a 'Yankee,' I seriously doubt that the locals would consider me

>that.

Gee, is Julia Stinkingfish internalizing my blanket statements again???

For the record, TO A SOUTHERNER, anyone living north the Mason Dixon Line is a Yankee. It doesn't matter how far north. It doesn't matter if you can't keep a stable home life and move whenever the bills come due. You are in Maine.... you are a Yankee in fact... you are in Damn Yankee territory. You just can't get the definition of anything right can you???

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 06:56:26 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

At 06:37 AM 2/2/02, Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Betsy! You MUST have been getting really soft! In my

>parts, we can take somebody swinging at us or even

>puking on us, our golf cart and even our pick-up

>truck! But to puke on ones DOG! That there's a

>shootin' offense! Somebody get a rope and save the

>bullet! :-)

Yeah...yeah... I know.... I am getting old. I did duck tape him into a mummy bag and onto a cot in medical :-)

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 06:33:20 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Digest Number 386

At 06:37 AM 2/2/02, "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com> wrote:

>No, just a pathetic bully who has nothing better to do with her time than sling insults at people. Have you ever heard one rule of most mailing lists that said, "Attack the idea, not the person". Name calling is a direct attack of the person. You don't like what she has said. You don't know her. Name calling is uncalled for. To think, this coming from the list owner herself. Hmmmm......! :-(

I think I will just save myself some time here:

Gee...and maybe if you read the archives before jumping into a thread, you would realize how wrong you are. What part of "I was mimicking Julia's behavior" do you not understand?? Would you please take the time to review what was actually said before you waste more bandwidth on redundant posts??

Oh.... and while we are still not on the subject, your 25 line billboard of a signature file is annoying and in very poor taste. Your commercial message is longer then most of your posts.

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 04:48:02 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

wrote:

<<The rest of Julia's peanut gallery didn't even seem

realize that I was mimicking the style of their

boorish, repellant, graceless, odious, underbred,

bedizened harridan ...which does not surprise me in

the least :-0>>

Not that I am acquiescing to being referred to as

part of Julia's "peanut gallery", but some of us did

of course see what you were doing and found it more

productive to simply ignore you.

This is not the first time Julia has annoyed

someone and most certainly will not be the last. I am

surprised, however, at how much energy you are feeding

it. <shrugs> Oh well.

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 12:56:52 -0000

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@t...> wrote:

> Lord Kern revealed a picture of his 'Staff of Satan' before you

> arrived.

Bad news, Thwalk... What you thought was Kern's Staff of Satan was in

fact only on loan from the Virginia DMV. While the DMV here in

Virginia is not technically an outpost of Hell, they do provide for

all of its HR needs. Thus, Satan's staff (liaisons, adjutants,

assistants, and all the people that make Hell... er... run) come fresh

from the spawning rooms here in scenic Richmond, VA. Kern just

scheduled a cross-pantheon guest appearance for fund-raising purposes.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 12:59:07 -0000

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

--- In WitchWars@y..., Enyo <enyo@p...> wrote:

> bt quipped:

> (y'know, I still want to give you some silly li'l pet name for those

> initials... Kinda like calling AoB Angel of Brats)

> >About the author:

> >Raymond Buckland, recognized Elder and Founder of the widely known

> >and practiced BTSAGM (BuyThisShitAndGimmeMoney) Tradition of Wicca,

> This is too fucking funny!

> May I put this up in the humor/filk section on my site?

> And may I call you Big Turkey? <smooch>

Sure, you can quote me... but not Big Turkey. I may be malevolent,

but I'm hardly stupid. *grin* How about Bad Transits?

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:32:32 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Kern, the god of dictionaries and Fish, wrote:

> Seems to me like this kitchen is full of pots... and pot smoking... ;}

<drags self into sitting position> Pain meds aren't working. I wouldn't

say no to a bong hit over here...

Enyo (who is suffering an as-of-yet undetermined illness)

"Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many rewards,

if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book."

--Ronald Reagan

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:32:12 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Toria speaks:

> This is not the first time Julia has annoyed

> someone and most certainly will not be the last.

That's for sure. But then some people are just too easy to annoy.

>I am surprised, however, at how much energy you are feeding

> it. <shrugs> Oh well.

I find it absolutely hilarious. She can't stop obsessing about me. She

types my name over and over and over. I really should receive royalties

for each time my name is used.

Julia

(Ok Betsy, post a reply, only this time try and make it really nasty and

full of insults, ~oh, and work the name 'Julia' in as often as possible)

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 05:38:13 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com> wrote:

<< <drags self into sitting position> Pain meds

aren't

working. I wouldn't say no to a bong hit over

here...>>

Here ya go, hon. Nothing like a nice bong hit

first thing in the morning.....

What are you doing up so early anyway??

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 05:40:06 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- Julia Walkingfish <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

Toria speaks:

This is not the first time Julia has annoyed

someone and most certainly will not be the last.

That's for sure. But then some people are just too

easy to annoy.

You you are just sooooo accommodating! LOL

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:45:56 +1100

From: "Julie Keegan" <majamoo@ozemail.com.au>

Subject: Good for the goose...

Julia,

I didn't comment at the time, because the mental imagery was too astounding,

but I don't think I've ever seen so many adjectives used in one sentence to

describe a person as I did in one of Betsy's last posts...maybe you should

be proud you're setting some new kind of record? If this attention

continues, maybe Lord Kern will promote you to his right hand if he thinks,

by riding on the coat tails of your publicity, he will inherit more

followers? Just a thought.. ;) Enjoy it while it lasts...fame is usually

all too fleeting...

Fern

----- Original Message -----

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

> I find it absolutely hilarious. She can't stop obsessing about me. She

> types my name over and over and over. I really should receive royalties

> for each time my name is used.

> Julia

> (Ok Betsy, post a reply, only this time try and make it really nasty and

> full of insults, ~oh, and work the name 'Julia' in as often as possible)

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 05:40:16 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Fact or Fiction?

>>>Gee...and maybe if you read the archives before jumping into a thread, you would realize how wrong you are. What part of "BY MY DEFINITION, Julia is not a Witch" do you not understand?? Would you please take the time to review what was actually said before you >>>waste more bandwidth on redundant posts??

If someone would like to post the title of the subject line to the post I'm supposed to be looking for I might read it. But since no one has bothered to do that yet for me or the other people who have asked for it, I'm not searching through 1000+ messages in these archives. As I have already stated in another post.

>>>Oh.... and while we are not on the subject, your 25 line billboard of a signature file is annoying and in very poor taste. Your commercial message is longer then most of your posts.

Thanks, but I've seen longer ones on this list. I am not going to name names but one of them referres to both a woman's private parts and also a man's. And, as I've been told on other lists, if I purposely posted all that as a *post* then I might agree with you because it would be advertising. But since it is my signature it is not. See the difference? Oh, I forgot, maybe I should ask if the resident Jackass can read. Or was she the topic? I forgot. |-( I forgot. You always have to nitpick everything, don't you. Now your complaining about signature lines. What's next?! I guess around here, maybe I shouldn't ask that.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

I have a list also here at this site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

I have a community on msn communities also:

http:http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

I moderate this one with AoB:

AngelicMagick-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Shop at my online mall! Have fun!

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 05:46:37 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 386

>>>>Would you please take the time to review what was actually said before you waste more bandwidth on redundant posts??

If you had read previous posts where I have asked repeatedly for a subject line to look for maybe I would have.

>>>Oh.... and while we are still not on the subject, your 25 line billboard of a signature file is annoying and in very poor taste. Your commercial message is longer then most of your posts.

Are you repeating yourself or did you forget what you have already written in the post I responded to before this one?

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

I have a list also here at this site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

I have a community on msn communities also:

http:http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

I moderate this one with AoB:

AngelicMagick-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Shop at my online mall! Have fun!

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 05:52:04 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

>>>>>On the surface that's how it's being framed, but the bottom line is that

Betsy hasn't been able to shove her definition of who gets to be a witch

down my and a few other throats. For some reason this really bothers

her. Other people have had various opinions but she's become obsessed with

me. She's so wound up now that she just can't let go. Kind of sad really.

Julia

I've noticed. Now she has started in on me. Picking at my sig line. As I understand it, you can advertise anything you want in a sig line. It's when you post an advertisement directly to the list that you can't do it. I have done nothing wrong. Neither have you.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

I have a list also here at this site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

I have a community on msn communities also:

http:http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

I moderate this one with AoB:

AngelicMagick-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Shop at my online mall! Have fun!

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 06:24:47 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

--- "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

wrote:

> Yeah...yeah... I know.... I am getting old. I did

> duck tape him into a mummy bag and onto a cot in

> medical :-)

> B~)

You would not possibly believe the strange look I

got from my First Sergeant. As I was reading this, he

came into my office, and then waited patiently as I

rolled around in my chair laughing my fool head off.

His only comment, "So. Sir, I take it the Company is

going to have a good day today?"

The image alone is priceless, and supports the

incredible importance of having duct tape. Or as we

call it, "hundred-mile-an-hour-tape". (Because it is

so damn high-speed!) Of course, we get a lot of

interesting color combinations with ours. Not just

Silver, but also dark forest green, green heavy

camouflage and brown heavy camouflage! One should

never pack a rucksack without it! This is just one

more very good reason why!

I am just grateful I wasn't drinking coffee at the

time!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 06:28:16 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- Julia Walkingfish <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

> Scotti lured:

> > But hey, I am willing to give almost anything a

> > good shot once or twice.....

> At least! I like that attitude and you gave an

> excellent answer! You're a keeper. Welcome to the

> world of Kernal delights!

> Thwak

WOO HOO!

Does that mean we are going to start calling it a

"Kernanalia"!? ;-)

And does this mean we are all "Kernals"? I kind of

like that...Kernal Hamilton. It sings for me!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:44:04 EST

From: TxSueMom@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 394

In a message dated 02/02/2002 6:37:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,

WitchWars@yahoogroups.com writes:

<< I need somebody here to verify or dispell for me wether it is true that

CA seventh graders are having to take mandatory muslim classes? Or is it just

in certain cities in CA? I have also heard that they are being forced to 'act

out' a Jyhad amongst their classmates. Is there any truth to this insanity? >>

Here's the news story:

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 15, 2002--The American Center for

Law and Justice, an international public interest law firm, said today it has

sent a letter to a California public school district demanding that school

officials permit students to opt out of a mandatory course on Islam that

requires students to pray in the name of Allah and to "pretend" they are

Muslim.

The ACLJ contends the course is a violation of the First Amendment free

speech and free exercise rights of students and violates the right of parents

to direct the education and upbringing of their children.

"While it is appropriate to teach about various religions - including the

teachings of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity - it is not appropriate for a

public school to require students to attend a course that violates their

religious beliefs," said Jay Sekulow, Chief Counsel of the ACLJ. "The school

is requiring students to participate in a course that clearly crosses the

constitutional line and violates the rights of both students and parents. We

are demanding that the school eliminate the mandatory nature of this class

and give students the opportunity to opt out if it violates their religious

beliefs."

The ACLJ sent a letter to the Byron Union School District in Byron,

California following objections from parents to a mandatory three-week course

for 7th grade students. According to news reports, the class requires

students to pray "in the name of Allah the Compassionate the Merciful," to

chant "Praise to Allah, Lord of Creation," to "pretend" they are Muslims,

wear Muslim clothing to school, stage their own Jihad, and select a Muslim

name from a list to "replace" their own name.

In the letter to the school, the ACLJ said the course contains "materials and

requirements that impermissibly force certain students to engage in speech

and in practices conflicting with their religion, in violation of the

students' free speech and free exercise rights as well as their parents'

rights to direct the education and upbringing of their children."

The ACLJ urges the school district to allow students to opt out of the Islam

course's requirements if the student or the student's parents object. The

letter also states that the school district should also inform parents who

have already objected to the course that it will accommodate their children

by allowing them to opt out of the objectionable requirements. The letter is

available on the web at www.aclj.org.

Sekulow said no student should be required to attend a course that violates

their free speech and free exercise rights.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 06:51:51 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

--- vampyresire1 <VampyreSire@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > The nuclear power plant DOES feed into the

> > Tennessee estuary.......... I mean Oak Ridge is

> > like *RIGHT* there! :-)

> You forgot Browns Ferry. Doesn't feed into the river

> but...

> But let's not forget the chemical plants that pump

> nitric acid and other stuff into the Earth, here in

> middle TN. Got get rid of those byproducts someway.

> Oh and the old phosphorous mines. Nothing like

> watching the lakes catch fire from the sludge left

> behind.

> Grem

Yeah. Nothing like a little extra spice for the soup.

Like the Health Department statements. "Americans

need to eat more fish to reduce the accumulation of

fats from so much red meat in their diet. Just don't

eat the fish caught in lakes and rivers because they

have absorbed so many toxins they are not safe to eat!

Does anybody got a mountain anywhere they wanna sell

me?

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 15:35:23 -0000

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

Subject: Oldie but Goodie

An engineer dies and reports to the pearly gates. St. Peter checks

his dossier and says, "Ah, you're an engineer -- you're in the wrong

place." So, the engineer reports to the gates of hell and is let in.

Pretty soon, the engineer gets dissatisfied with the level of comfort

in hell, and starts designing and building improvements. After

awhile, they've got air conditioning and flush toilets and

escalators, and the engineer is a pretty popular guy. One day, God

calls Satan up on the telephone and says with a sneer, "So, how's it

going down there in hell?" Satan replies, "Hey, things are going

great. We've got air conditioning and flush toilets and escalators,

and there's no telling what this engineer is going to come up with

next." God replies, "What??? You've got an engineer? That's a

mistake -- he should never have gotten down there; send him up here."

Satan says, "No way." I like having an engineer on the staff, and I'm

keeping him." God says, "Send him back up here or I'll sue." Satan

laughs uproariously and answers, "Yeah, right. And just where are YOU

going to get a lawyer?"

Grem

"Still searching for the cosmic clorox."

________________________________________________________________________

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 396

Date: 2/2/2002

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

WitchWars-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

2. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

3. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

4. Re: WitchWars Poll

From: charon38@juno.com

5. Re: Left coast insanity????

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

6. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: charon38@juno.com

7. Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "gypsy-witch" <suki_nova@hotmail.com>

8. Re: Digest Number 394

From: "wittischism" <tatyanna_patten@hotmail.com>

9. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

10. Re: Digest Number 394

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

11. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

12. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

13. Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

14. Re: Happy Imbolc

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

15. Making a difference

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

16. Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

17. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

18. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

19. Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

From: "SeaDragon" <alphapythia@home.com>

20. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

21. Attention Betsy

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:35:36 -0500

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

> As I understand it, you can advertise anything you want in a sig line.

> It's when you post an advertisement directly to the list that you can't

> do it. I have done nothing wrong. Neither have you.

You understand incorrectly. Popular netiquette is that .signatures do

not contain advertising, and are four lines or less in length. They're

supposed to be primarily contact information, although there's also the

traditional pithy quotation.

Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

"The trail is the thing, not the end of the trail. Travel too fast and

you miss all you are traveling for."

- Louis L'Amour (1908-1988)

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:59:17 -0600

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

At 05:52 AM 02/02/2002 -0800, Anita took time to post:

>I've noticed. Now she has started in on me. Picking at my sig line. As

>I understand it, you can advertise anything you want in a sig line. It's

>when you post an advertisement directly to the list that you can't do

>it. I have done nothing wrong. Neither have you.

Hun, what you have is not a sig line, that is a fucking billboard.

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 397

Date: 12/30/1899

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

2. Re: Digest Number 395

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

3. Re: Dirt - Kisma

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

4. Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

5. Re:Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

6. Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

7. Re:Dirt

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

8. Re: Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

9. Re: Re:Dirt

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

10. Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

11. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

12. Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

13. Re:Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

14. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

15. The irony of it all

From: Fred <shamandncr@yahoo.com>

16. Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

17. Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

18. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

19. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

20. Re: Re: Information

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

21. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

22. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

23. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

24. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

25. Re: Why we believe what we believe

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:22:53 -0500

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Scotti, pleeeeeeease save me a bottle of your nut

brown ale to share with Dharma when we celebrate

my getting off interferon in November. I'll only

be able to drink abut a thinbleful, but the taste

is so heavenly I'd rather celebrate with a

thinmblefull of your ale as anything.

Love you!

http://krisjones.tripod.com

ICQ: 9074244 AOL IM: kriscerz

"Seize the moment. Remember all the

women who waved off the dessert cart on

the Titanic." --Erma Bombeck

http://www.care2.com - Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife!

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:06:28 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 395

At 10:35 AM 2/2/02, you wrote:

>Message: 19

> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 05:46:37 -0800

> From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

>Subject: Re: Digest Number 386

>>>>>Would you please take the time to review what was actually said before you waste more bandwidth on redundant posts??

>If you had read previous posts where I have asked repeatedly for a subject line to look for maybe I would have.

>>>>Oh.... and while we are still not on the subject, your 25 line billboard of a signature file is annoying and in very poor taste. Your commercial message is longer then most of your posts.

>Are you repeating yourself or did you forget what you have already written in the post I responded to before this one?

No, it's called "cut and paste" I'm just saving time with Johnny come lately posters who have no idea what they are talking about, but will spew forth copious amounts of inapplicable drivel so they have the repeated opportunity to advertise.

Your 25 line billboard of a signature file is annoying and in very poor taste. Your commercial message is longer then most of your posts. Spam disguised a relevant post is still spam.

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 19:46:06 -0000

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: Dirt - Kisma

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Herb Mitchell" <hrmitchell@e...> wrote:

> Sigh. I only wish we had been able to boot her. Fact of the matter

is,

> she resigned/didn't renew her membership before we could do that.

> BB, Herb

> Former COG NMO

Ah, thanks for the clarification on that. I wasn't a member of COG at

the time (though my coven is in the process of applying now). But the

cut-and-run before the hammer really can come down is consistent, I

think.

Love, Estar Korai

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:10:04 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

At 10:35 AM 2/2/02, Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Of course, we get a lot of interesting color combinations with ours. Not just

>Silver, but also dark forest green, green heavy camouflage and brown heavy camouflage!

One of my most cherished gifts was a three pack role of Red Duct Tape :-)

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:14:14 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 02:17 PM 2/2/02, Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Betsy, I have to disagree with one point here. You're mostly correct, anyone above the Mason Dixon line IS a Yankee, but a Damn Yankee is not someone in Maine, its

>a Yankee that moves South and STAYS. Now, a GoddammYankee is a Yankee that moves South, stays, and marries a good Southern man or woman!

You are absolutely right! I stand corrected <BG>

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:51:03 -0800 (PST)

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, SeaDragon wrote:

> Rob, Copper Knives!??! (oooohhhhh... Ahhhhh.....) Do you do mail

order? Have some picutures? Email me off list if you wish, or take

advantage of this oppotunity for blatent self promotion. :)

Hey now,

Yeah I make a lot of things: copper herb knives mostly curved

blades either plain, leather wrapped or hardwood handles. Also nickle

silver athames (to rhyme with a-frame;-) ) and sometimes bronze as well.

Bronze mirrors, "cd" size and silver dollar size.

offering dishes, beaten metal motly smallish.

Hardwood hair pins, I call them forx, from a tenthousand year old design

user tested for ten thousand years...

palmpilot stylus (styli?) that double as hair pins.

stone bowled, hardwood stemmed pipes, catlinite, lapis, lapidalite,

obsidian, labradorite, blue pearl granite, and marble.

tiny to very large.

And goddess images in stone, amber, and fossilized walrus ivory.

I do other things as well, but not all of the time so I won't meantion

them here.

I don't have standard shapes (well not many) and I don't as yet have a

scanner or digicam so nopix for now. I sometimes do mail orders but mostly

face to face sales, it's better to feel the thing...

If there's real interest I'll get on it.

RobII

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Erica Frank & Rob CarterII

elfwreck@idiom.com

"Everybody understands Mickey mouse.

Few understand Herman Hesse.

Hardly anyone understands Albert Einstein.

And nobody understands Emperor Norten"

-Malaclypse the younger-

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 19:55:04 -0000

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

Subject: Re:Dirt

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@O...> wrote:

> That said, you are confirming the Kisma rumors I have been hearing

for years. I have never been able to get clear details of the lawsuit

Stewart filed. As I understand it, RJ and Kisma had a personal

relationship? Her claim was basically that the stuff in the books was

written in the bedroom?? In other words...shared work??<

Whooooaaaaa, that's a new one on me. I'd gone by the time the heavy

crap started to fall, so what I know of that period is based on

reports I got from those "left behind" as they made their respective

exits. Nobody mentioned the allegation of romps with RJ to me, but

they did discuss the tour guide incident in fairly gruesome detail.

It Allegedly (the CYA word!) involved her making drunken confessions

to him that although they were both married to other people, she was

the reincarnation of - which one was it? - Banbha, I think, and he was

somebody-or-other, and if they didn't get it on the world would be

destroyed. When he didn't bite, she made up a love charm and

entrusted it to her second-in-command...who promptly took it to the

Farrars for disposal. (Which I suppose only goes to show that you

can't trust your second-in-command to keep your dicey spell gear safe

for you. Hard to find good help these days.)

Love, Estara Korai

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:56:52 -0500

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

I'd like to get some pricing info, too, Rob. I

have a Bubbly friend who'd kill to get her hands

on some Forx. Don't any of you other SS'ers

spoil the surprise, OK?

http://krisjones.tripod.com

ICQ: 9074244 AOL IM: kriscerz

"Seize the moment. Remember all the

women who waved off the dessert cart on

the Titanic." --Erma Bombeck

http://www.care2.com - Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife!

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:05:31 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Dirt

--- lorothiel <estara2@earthlink.net> wrote:

> It Allegedly (the CYA word!) involved her making

> drunken confessions to him that although they were

> both married to other people, she was the

> reincarnation of - which one was it? - Banbha, I

> think, and he was somebody-or-other, and if they

> didn't get it on the world would be destroyed. When

> he didn't bite, she made up a love charm and

> entrusted it to her second-in-command...who promptly

> took it to the Farrars for disposal. (Which I

> suppose only goes to show that you can't trust your

> second-in-command to keep your dicey spell gear safe

> for you. Hard to find good help these days.)

> Love, Estara Korai

huh. I wonder what the Old Lady had to say about some

drunken wench trying to take on Her Mantle and

impersonate Her? Maybe could be why her life is a

great big whirling shit-storm!? So to speak.

Of course, to link this all back to an earlier

thread, maybe this is just a great example of how a

Pagan Community, when left to it's own devices, will

police itself, and cleanse itself of un-ethical and

unwanted presences?

I Am,

Your Humble servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:07:28 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- Kris <krisjones@wildmail.com> wrote:

> Scotti, pleeeeeeease save me a bottle of your nut

> brown ale to share with Dharma when we celebrate

> my getting off interferon in November. I'll only

> be able to drink abut a thinbleful, but the taste

> is so heavenly I'd rather celebrate with a

> thinmblefull of your ale as anything.

> Love you!

Hon, by November I had better have a few more other

recipes made and consumed! But, rest assured I will

save something back for you!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:17:25 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- SingingCrow <singcrow@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Time for some clarifications folks! By your

> definition I am a Goddamn Yankee (I married a great

> Southern Woman) and I will not accept that

> characterization at all. A Yankee may very well live

> north of the Mason-Dixon line but, and this is very

> important, it also lives South of the Canadian

> border, or in the case of Detroit and Alaska north

> of it. It is an absolute insult to me and my nation

> that you continuously forget that fact. We are not

> now and have never been Yankees.

> Nehani

Naw! You see, that just ain't how we play the

game! Unless you come from a state that had a

physical representation in the Congress of the

Confederate States of America, y'all are a Yankee!

Now there is German Yankees and Japanese Yankees and

Yankee Yankees and Mexican Yankees. You just happen

to be a Canadian Yankee. The only real way we can

actually tell a Canadian Yankee from a Yankee Yankee

is y'all Canadian Yankees are a whole lot nicer, and

y'all have better beer than them Yankee Yankees do!

For the sake of simplicity and, well, sometimes

politeness, we just usually shorten it down to the

first word in the line is all. :-)

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

__________________________________________________

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:28:53 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 02:17 PM 2/2/02, Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net> wrote:

>Julia and her suck up club? Because we don't agree with you, and happen to

>agree that Julia and the other Atheist Witches have the right to call

>themselves Witches, we're suck ups?

"We??" Are you starting to internalize my blanket statements now too Raven?? Actually, I was mimicking the behavior of several people who joined this list specifically to defend Julia, after Julia went whining off list to them. Are you one of those people now?? I certainly did not include you in that category, but it appears you are choosing to put yourself in it?

>Do you always treat people who disagree with you like this?

As I said, I treat people the way they treat me and others. Julia and a couple of her mouthpieces are getting what they give...and it appears they don't like it :-0

> I do remember someone mentioning something to the effect that you either never give up or don't know when to quit.

If you are asking will I ever stop treating Julia with the same disrespect she has continually shown me and others on this list since the moment she arrived, not likely.

> If this is an example of how you treat those

>within your community when they don't agree with you, I'm going to have to

>assume that many prefer to keep silent rather than set you off like some

>kind of mindless wind-up toy.

You can assume anything you like. I think we have already established that I really don't give a rat's patoot what you think of me??

>Which is true, the impression I'm getting or the

>report someone else made about you?

As with everything else...it all depends on perspective :-)

Blessings,

Betsy

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:35:06 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 02:17 PM 2/2/02, "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> A Yankee may very well live north of the Mason-Dixon line but, and this is very important, it also lives South of the Canadian border, or in the case of Detroit and Alaska north of it. It is an absolute insult to me and my nation that you continuously forget that fact. We are not now and have never been Yankees.

You are so right. It is very insulting to be called a Yankee, and the nice polite Canadians don't deserve that. I'm sorry... I should have included "in this country" <BG>

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:27:02 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> You just happen to be a Canadian Yankee. The only real way we can

> actually tell a Canadian Yankee from a Yankee Yankee

> is y'all Canadian Yankees are a whole lot nicer, and

> y'all have better beer than them Yankee Yankees do!

> For the sake of simplicity and, well, sometimes

> politeness, we just usually shorten it down to the

> first word in the line is all. :-)

> I Am,

> Your Humble Servant,

> Scotti

No! No! No! No! No! Perish the thought my friend. Just try saying that

in a bar in Calgary! We are not Yankees, they speak like us so they can

claim to be us in a pinch. But they are not us and we are not them.

Damn Scotti, call me an ass, jerk, waste of space or anything........but

not Yankee.

I'll give you this, people in Toronto..........they are Yankees, in fact

they think they are New Yorkers. But not the rest of us. You are dissing my

Mom here Scotti, MY MOM IS NOT A YANKEE!!

My thoughts, not Yankee thoughts,

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:36:13 -0800 (PST)

From: Fred <shamandncr@yahoo.com>

Subject: The irony of it all

I have found the whole atheist witch thread to be

ironic. Here's why:

Someone shows up and says, "I'm an atheist witch," and

then goes on to tell why. From the descriptions (if I

remember correctly) it does indeed sound like the

person is a witch, just not atheist or a magician, not

a witch. So, with the list being as it is, folks call

her on it.

Now let's stop right here and ask, why? Why would

people want to correct (or conform to common usage)

this person's self labeling? Would it be because they

just want to "pick on" someone new? They have

absolutely nothing better to do than to belittle

someone? I don't think so. Perhaps it's because they

don't want her to come across in future discussions

with whomever as sounding like a blubbering idiot?

Gee, this almost sounds like a service to me.

So then this person uses degrading and insulting terms

such as "beg" and "grovel" to a group which includes

sincere deity worshippers. And yes, I did find these

terms to be insulting. However, *I* did not take

offense to them. The specific word choice of these

terms insinuates insult and could be (and obviously

was) considered degrading to a person's faith.

Because of the self-labeling and perhaps poor choice

of words (or intentional choice of words) the list

erupts.

This person then goes to other lists and enlists the

aid of friends to come and defend her. Whether this

was done directly (i.e., "there is this bully of a

bitch who ownes a list and is being mean to me! Come

to the list and say good stuff about me") or

indirectly (i.e., "what I believe my faith to be is

being questioned on a certain list. Can I get some

help in formulating my answers?"), is a mute point.

What happened is all of these cheerleaders show up and

without knowing the full story (and not wanting to

read the archives petaining to the thread [but in all

honesty, who can blame them? 4000+ posts in one

month!]), start throwing their two cents in like this

is some sort of wishing well.

This all leads to name calling and the whole

conversation has been reduced to that of an elementary

playground.

The pity, is that this person and her friends may be

highly intelligent and have some thought provoking

statements to share. However, because only one side

(that which says she is either not an athiest or not a

witch) has asked for clarification and has provided

several examples of their view (okay, sure it was in

between insults but it was there) I have started to

arbitrarily delete the cheerleaders posts without

reading them. Why? Because from what I've read,

instead of trying to answer the questions or provide

reasons as to why they believe what they believe, they

have just perpetuated the insult fest. Thus, their

words have no credibility.

The ironic part is that her response to questions

posed - with the reasoning behind the asking of those

questions being not wanting her to sound foolish -

combined with her recruitment of others to speak for

her, has shown to me that she is, in fact, a fool.

Because the "stop picking on Julia" gang have already

lost credibility, my initial reaction to any future

posts from them will be to start sniffing for the

bullshit.

This is sad because I don't know any of these people

and these are probably really cool folks. I can only

judge from what I have seen. I do, however, know

Betsy and although I don't agree with some of her

tactics (but they do work for her), I find her to be

highly intelligent and thus, has more credibility.

Since this is a cyberspace venue, I do not have the

luxury of seeing body language and voice fluctuations

in communicating. In saying this, I may very well

have misinterpreted the meaning behind the posts.

Thus, my mind is not closed on the matter. However,

because of the lack of credibility already

established, convincing me will be tough. Those

involved in the posts probably won't give a rats ass

if I'm convinced or not, but it sure would be nice to

put this puppy to bed and move on to other topics.

Since I typed this entire email and it is based solely

on my interpretations and perceptions of the events

that have transpired, it is all my own damn opinion!

Fred

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Message: 16

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:07:04 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

--- Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com> wrote:

> These books are sort of the dead sea scrolls of the

> northern trads, and they're causing some problems

> for a lot of folk they apear to contradict much of

> the accepted "fact" of the xian written sagas and

> eddas.

> RobII

:-) Kind of like "The Song Of Taliesin". So, this

minor Christian Monk who lives in a monastery on the

Cambrai border happens to bump into this hermit who

says he is actually Taliesin the Bard from the Court

of King Arthur. Since the fall of Camelot and the

loss of Merlin, he, despondent, removes himself to the

forest to meditate on the future. While there, he

runs across this giant of a man striding across the

landscape, and who identifies himself as the God Oghm.

Oghm is elated because He has just heard the news of

the coming of a new king who is actually a Son of a

God, and whose influence and messages of love and

peace are on the way, and it will herald in a new time

in the world.

That is basically an overview. But, how many

holes can YOU find in this story! If you ever get the

book, make sure you read it with a couple of beers in

you first. It will help with the hair-pulling thing.

Of course, make sure you swallow the beer before

reading any of it. It will help prevent beer showers.

And as we all know, beer showers = beer shortage.

And beer shortage IS a crime! Other than that, it

will make for a great evening of literary

entertainment!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

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Message: 17

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:39:16 -0800 (PST)

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

> Hey now,

> Nope, never heard of her, my reading list has close

> to five

> hundred books on it now, and none of them were

> written in the past twenty

> years. If she writes "newbie books" why would I

> bother? If she writes

> asatrue or wiccatru books I wouldn't read her I'm

> losing my hair fast

> enough without ripping it out (not that I'm equating

> her with SRW but I

> read a paragraph and lost two handfuls). Hmmm,

> sounds like a put down, I'm

> not putting you down or the author either I don't

> know her. I'm just not

> up to adding more books to the pile right now.

Not adding new books to the pile is fair. HERD is

not, however, a new author, nor is she a Wiccatru, New

Age, or other such fluffy type. Shes an

anthropologist, and from my reading of her she's got

some pretty good solid research.

Know anyone from Falkenberg by chance?

Catseye

=====

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Message: 18

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:43:00 -0800 (PST)

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

You are correct Nehani, there is a special name for

you folk. Your a damned Kanuck. Your a f*ckin Kanuck

for threatening to take one of our fine southern women

back up to Kanuckland with you!

Catseye

--- SingingCrow <singcrow@bellsouth.net> wrote:

=====

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Message: 19

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:55:13 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> You are correct Nehani, there is a special name for

> you folk. Your a damned Kanuck. Your a f*ckin Kanuck

> for threatening to take one of our fine southern women

> back up to Kanuckland with you!

> Catseye

Now this I can accept. As long as you say right. Its Canuck, with a C,

and it rhymes with puck, truck or f*ck. It does not rhyme with book, schnook

or took as I have heard many people say it. I'm proud to be a Canuck. Also,

I do not threaten to take a fine Southern Woman back to Canuckland, I

promise to, with her full co-operation in fact.

Don't despair however, we will be the worlds longest commuters as we

intend to keep a base of operations on this side of the border as well.

Mostly, we will be touring with our music as soon the INS gives us the go

ahead and that could take us anywhere. Our family on SingingCrow's side is

here, mine is there, including my children, so there really isn't any

debate. I have to be where my kids are. Its going to be very busy for us for

the next few years but we have no intentions of losing track of anyone. We

want to be Bridgebuilders of the international type, so mote it be.

Love on ya,

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 16:48:48 -0500

From: Ann Marie <amd57432@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Information

At 02:17 PM 02/02/2002, you wrote:

>Hey now,

> Nope, never heard of her, my reading list has close to five

>hundred books on it now, and none of them were written in the past twenty

>years. If she writes "newbie books" why would I bother? If she writes

>asatrue or wiccatru books I wouldn't read her I'm losing my hair fast

>enough without ripping it out (not that I'm equating her with SRW but I

>read a paragraph and lost two handfuls). Hmmm, sounds like a put down, I'm

>not putting you down or the author either I don't know her. I'm just not

>up to adding more books to the pile right now.

None of the above really. HERD is a historian and/or archeologist. She

has been publishing for 40 or 50 years now, I think. I know she used to be

greatly respected for her historical accuracy. Her older books are better

then her more contemporary ones. The oldest I have been able to read is

"Pagan Scandinavia" published in the 50's or early 60's. It belonged to a

library and I couldn't get them to sell it to me.

>First I've got to wipe the coffee offthe screen...there. Now, no as far as

>I know the books arn't on the net nor are they in english.

>However a friend of Diana Paxson whose name escapes me right now got

>permission to study them for his disertation, and when he's done they may

>well end up in a book or on the net.

Sorry, I didn't think it was possible, I just asked out of hope.

>These books are sort of the dead sea scrolls of the northern trads, and

>they're causing some problems for a lot of folk they apear to contradict

>much of the accepted "fact" of the xian written sagas and eddas.

>This is very exciting stuff and it gives a more acurate picture of the way

>of the folk away from the warrior cult that asatru claims is the be all of

>norse tradition.

Fantastic! I have always wondered what parts of the eddas were missing.

>Only to a point, the reason my kin have survived is in part due to the

>idea that all outsiders are out to destroy us so we don't talk about

>religion as a living thing. Although if you should go that far north with

>an awareness of what was you can clearly see what is...

Oh I wish. Sweden and Norway are two places on my 'wish to visit'

list. If I were younger I might consider moving there. It wouldn't be

fair to my son to move there now. I really couldn't take him that far from

his father, no matter how I may feel about the man.

>That's o.k. I won't hold it against you (damn square heads!), What is the

>other quarter?

I take it that remark was about the Norwegian side. As I was told,

English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Norman French. In fact my maiden name is

supposed to be Norman. It's Bufford. Yes I know that the most recent

genetic research say that most people in the UK have a great deal of

Scandinavian genes in them.

>Ja sure, you betcha! will you be going? I don't know where you live, if

>you're going to be there stop by my booth (I'm the guy with all the copper

>knives) we can get coffeee and talk...

> RobII

I live outside a town called Windsor in southern Virginia. No I don't get

to any Cons or festivals usually. Except for the Gatherings which I run

registration for. We do have a few slots left for Vendors at the Spring

Gathering. April 25-28 here at the campground . . . hint hint.

Ann Marie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:26:16 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

Arwen,

If he does, I saw him first! LOL

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

Who will never catch up with all of these e-mails, so if something needs me

to address it please send it again. Been offline due to my Grandmother having

a heart attack, sorry.:(

<< Um, Cerridwyn? Does Biggballs have a brother named Biggdick? And if he

does,

is he poly?

Arwen

inquiring minds want to know. >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:35:18 -0700

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

Subject: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

| Arwen,

| If he does, I saw him first! LOL

| Love and Honor,

| Cerridwyn Stormdragon

BEEEEE OTCH! MOOOOOOOOM, Cerri won't share.

| Who will never catch up with all of these e-mails, so if something needs

| to address it please send it again. Been offline due to my Grandmother

having

| a heart attack, sorry.:(

Is she ok at this point? Do you need candles lit?

Arwen

who really isn't a heartless bitch.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:55:56 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

Scotti,

I think we might be getting somewhere, relpies below,

<< OK. I think I see where the miscue in

communication is coming from. What I am saying is if

there is someone in our community who is breaking the

law, then we as a community have the right, indeed the

responsibility, to enforce the law and report or press

charges against that criminal. If, on the other hand,

we have someone who is practicing un-ethical behavior

such as you have listed below;

>>> In this instance, as an Elder, any Elder in the

community should have the decency to look into it. In

fact, if this were brought to me, I would see it as my

responsibility to approach the two, Moondragon and

Boyfriend, seperatly, and talk to them about it.

Probably in a "counseling atmosphere" kind of setting.

If Moondragon and/or Boyfriend are in another group,

then I would approach the Elder/s of that group and

speak with them on that subject, highlighting that I

am not making accusations, but revealing concerns.

Then through a united effort, the issue might be

looked into. Might be founded, might be unfounded.

But a lot of people are looking at it from different

perspectives. If counseling and help are needed then

it is available from a variety of sources. Then we

have a situation that is potentially volatile solved

in a professional community manner, in the way a

community is supposed to operate. And we do not have

one problem that is compounded by blind public

statements, which are, in my opinion, damaging to

everyone involved. If you look into the situation,

you would not be wrong, you would be satisfying your

social obligation to look into it, as was your group

member who voiced her concern to you. You would be

satisfying your social obligation to approach those

peoples leaders/elders/friends and voice your

concerns. You would be wrong if you jumped into it

and started to try to force your form of social

justice on the perpetrator. You would be wrong if you

passed judgment with no investigation. There are

constructive ways to handle these sorts of things. If

we run everyone out who violates a social principle,

eventually, there will be nobody left except the

convening "Board Of Social Mores". It isn't our job

to chase people away, it is our responsibility to

build a community. That means integrating everyone

that can be integrated, not punishing, fixing or

getting back at everyone that pisses us off.

***I agree that each complaint would need to be looked into. I also agree

that things should not chased away without a reason but I do think that if

counseling and talking does not work and the problem keeps repeating then

notifying community is right. I also disagree that keeping folks who want to

harm our community is wise. Some folks just are not worth saving. I used to

want to save everyone and I believed that everyone could be saved, then I

grew up! What I am talking about is basic behaviors the one's that eveyone

who should be in community all ready follows. There would have to be great

care taken so that there could be NOTHING done out of "someone pissed me off"

because that is not what this community is about. What I am discussing is

just what you are discribing but with the understanding that not everyone has

accessibility to Elders, and with the rate we are growing with solitaire's we

will have more folks than ever that will have no recourse. Otherwise we are

not evolving with the times.

>>> No, not at all. Under my system, the student

gets some needed counseling and mutual community

support for that kind of trauma, if it happens.

However, if the community were to develop in the

manner I see that it should, that sort of thing would

not be able to happen. Everyone coming into the

community will be exposed to what is "True Magic",

(apologies to Amber K) and what is sexual predation.

In the interim, if Priest Biggballs DOES try something

like that, then Mr. Biggballs will find himself

charged under Federal Stalking Statutes, Sexual

Predation Statutes, Harassment Statutes and perhaps

even Indecent Sexual Assault. Problem solved. And

all of the members in this tight-knit community are

there to help your student have the courage to

prosecute! A predator is removed from the community,

the community has the faith to use the legal system to

pursue this and the legal experts can, and will use

professionally gathered evidence to prosecute and

convict, instead of a series of tit-for-tat verbal

wars between two groups of people who are getting

angrier and angrier at each other!

*** OH now it is my system or your system? LOL We do like to fight don't we

Scotti? :) Okay Let's go with your system it works much like my system but

your is for the members of a tight knit community, and it would work. But

what happens to the folks who are not in a tight knit community? Are they

seen as any less worthy being solitaires or whatever? Should they not have

some kind of recourse, or are we going to say to the predetors hey leave my

folks alone and go feed on those folks over there they are not under my wing?

>>> The common ground is already established.

Everyone in the community has a vested interest in the

success of the community and the trusted relationship

with the law of the land. If we were able to develop

a close community, then because priest Biggballs is

not only held accountable to his Gods, but also under

the law, he is removed from the community, he forfeits

his financial investment, (Yes! I am the kind of

person that would write that into the purchasing

contract!) and he goes to jail. The community would

make the decision to levy this action and the law

would take care of the rest of it. The idea that

Craft people should not take criminal acts to the law

is ludicrous and self-defeating. The idea that an

Elder or one person should take a stand and champion a

cause against a person or for the sake of the

community is also ludicrous and self defeating. Let's

face some facts here. We are all pretty well

intelligent and at least somewhat functional as

rational human beings. We all want to take care of

ourselves and we all want to be informed. None of us

want to be a part of a world where someone else is

going to take care of things for us. I certainly do

not. If there is something going on, and a major

decision of justice, retribution or vengeance is going

to be done, I think I should have full disclosure. If

someone is stealing money, abusing people or using

community systems for personal gain, I think there

should be an official, legal investigation. The

accused MUST be *proven* guilty, not merely assumed so

because a friend of a friend who is a good friend says

so. If someone gets into a "you are an asshole!"-"NO!

YOU are an asshole!" tift, then no, that is not my

business, and they need to work the thing out between

themselves. They might have to have some help, and if

so, that might be with friends of the two or a few

elders or what-not, but no one person should have, or

assume to have the authority to make the problem "all

better". There are successful ways to settle social

conflict and there are ways to handle criminal acts.

The two should never cross. If someone is a criminal,

and it can be proven, consistent with American

Jurisprudence, then they need to go to jail. If

someone is in social conflict, then the persons in

conflict have the responsibility to work through the

problem, face-to-face, through mediation, however it

takes. If someone is breaking Coven Laws or Craft

Laws, then that is between that person and that

persons Coven or group. To intervene in that instance

is in and of itself, a violation of most Craft Laws

that I am aware of.

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

*** I think I see some of the problem I am not saying that Craft people can

not go to the police for breaking the law of Man. If someone is raped,

murdered, steals, or whatever, srue go to the police but don't take "Craft

issues" to the cops. Craft issues remain within Craft". But your system does

not address those not in a coven or group.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:59:35 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

Speaking of mortals mixing with Gods...

Everytime I go to the Detroit Institute of Arts, I have to make one stop. It's a rule, a moral imperative: A silver sculpture of (mortal) Leda and Zeus-as-swan. Neoclassical bestiality at its best. The myth seems popular enough among Neoclassical artists, and this particular sculpture is among the more prurient depictions I've seen.

Zeus, You dawg, whatever will Hera say?

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Queens Plaza

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:40 PM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

--- Julia Walkingfish <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

<<So I'm sticking with my first god, the one who puts

out.>>

Well, being new to this whole deity thing myself, I

wasn't aware gods were allowed to "mix with" the mere

mortals, but now that you bring it up......

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:58:12 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Why we believe what we believe

Go back and look at her first 10 or so posts.

<< I must have missed this. Could you direct me to a number in the past

emails that I could look at? Not because my opinion matters but because I'm

a nosy bitch.

________________________________________________________________________

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 398

Date: 2/2/2002

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: an interesting bit of fluff.../Another opinion

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

2. Re: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

3. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

4. Re: Digest Number 385

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

5. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

6. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

7. Re: Re: Gossip.

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

8. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

9. Re: names and pagan manners

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

10. Re: dietary needs

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

11. Re: Re: Seen a God?

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

12. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

13. HRE Davidson

From: "Cynthia Haywood" <pyratejenni@hotmail.com>

14. Earth

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

15. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

16. Re: Re: Gossip.

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

17. Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

18. Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

19. Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

20. Re: Re: Re: Fact or Fiction?

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

21. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

22. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

23. Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

24. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

25. Re: Re: Gossip.

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:04:46 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: an interesting bit of fluff.../Another opinion

Julia,

Interesting called in by whom???

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< The Other Julia

Disclaimer: I am not, nor have I ever been a member of Serpent Stone, but

have been called in as a witness in the original Serpent Stone list, only to

see some of the same dramas resurface here, two years later, with still no

resolution. >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 18:11:29 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Mares eat oats and does eat oats and litte lambs eat ivy!

At 07:59 AM 2/2/02, you wrote:

>Sure, you can quote me... but not Big Turkey. I may be malevolent,

>but I'm hardly stupid. *grin* How about Bad Transits?

Bacon-Tomato?

Boy Trouble?

Bratty Thing?

Aww... come on, I *like* turkey... <giggles>

And thanks for permission to use that.

Enyo

"I've decided when the Gods want to punish you they give you.....FAMILIES!!!!!"

--Odrade

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 18:13:08 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Toria offered:

> Here ya go, hon. Nothing like a nice bong hit

>first thing in the morning.....

<sigh> I'd prefer a vicodin and a shot of vodka, but, hey, a bong hit will do.

> What are you doing up so early anyway??

I had to go to Hell... er, work... for a couple of hours. There's really

no rest for the wicked.

Enyo

"Reality is an illusion that occurs due to the lack of alcohol." --Anonymous

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:05:03 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 385

>My question:

>How respectful "for others' feelings and beliefs" is it to assume from the

get-go that the majority of your readers will be outraged because, clearly,

they have >>>no manners?

Anita:

I made no assumptions here. I simply shared an article.

Me, now:

I wasn't bitching at you. I was bitching at the non-present author of the

article.

-- Kern

_________________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:08:46 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

The Church of Kern site, which links to the Holy Icon, is now a part of my site. The direct link is

www.qix.net/~seahorse/kern.htm

I'm updating it as things, um, pop up. ;}

By the way, for those with a sick sense of humor, you may also want to check out:

http://www.qix.net/~seahorse/bfiction/ELMO.htm

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Julia Walkingfish

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:16 AM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

Toria:

> Well, being new to this whole deity thing myself, I

> wasn't aware gods were allowed to "mix with" the mere

> mortals, but now that you bring it up......

Yeah, this is my first experience with a god too so I just take my cues

from him. If he wants to dance~ we dance....etc., etc., etc......

Lord Kern revealed a picture of his 'Staff of Satan' before you arrived.

Perhaps we could prevail upon his largesse to repost it for your viewing

pleasure.

Hail Creamed Corn!

Thwalk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 18:17:11 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Isis wrote:

>I've noticed. Now she has started in on me. Picking at my sig line. As

>I understand it, you can advertise anything you want in a sig line. It's

>when you post an advertisement directly to the list that you can't do

>it. I have done nothing wrong. Neither have you.

Actually, Betsy's got you there. A sig any longer than four or five lines

is considered a bandwidth hog. Of course, on a list where snipping posts

is not a priority, I'm surprised that it would be considered an issue.

Enyo

"It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care."

-Peter Gibbons, Office Space

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:21:48 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Gossip.

YES Scotti,

I can imagine it! I believe that we are going to have to grow to embrase

the changing times or I believe it will become chaos.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< There is

supposed to be a standard of social behavior, and the

greater community is supposed to guard against it.

Right now we will not be effective because we are all

secluding ourselves. >>

<< Can you imagine it?>>>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:36:22 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

There are two issues of netiquette being claimed by Isis, but only one that I see being overtly discussed:

1. Length of sigs. I concur with Enyo (and Betsy?). More than four lines and you're pushing it.

2. Ads in sigs. I think that depends on what the ad is for. In my case, ClearingHouse of the Gods would certainly like to get enough donations to break even, and I know other people do run businesses and would like to make a profit at them. On the other hand, I don't think people would groove on seeing ads for Netscape or AOHell. *shrug* I don't think that's as clear a call.

-- Kern, Co-founder, Publisher's ClearingHouse of the Gods (www.chotg.org)

I respect your right to believe as you see fit, so long as you bring no harm to me or mine; all I request is the courtesy of reciprocity.

----- Original Message -----

From: Enyo

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:17 PM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Good for the goose...

Isis wrote:

>I've noticed. Now she has started in on me. Picking at my sig line. As

>I understand it, you can advertise anything you want in a sig line. It's

>when you post an advertisement directly to the list that you can't do

>it. I have done nothing wrong. Neither have you.

Actually, Betsy's got you there. A sig any longer than four or five lines

is considered a bandwidth hog. Of course, on a list where snipping posts

is not a priority, I'm surprised that it would be considered an issue.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:34:01 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

I've had folks call my work and ask for Cerridwyn Stormdragon more than once.

Now my secretary just says hey Debbie this must be for you! LOL But in

reality many folks livelyhood could be hurt by this sort of thing!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Heh, I had that once. I dont' really change my name

from craft to mundane much, I usually am called Cat

and that's the end of it. >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:40:09 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: dietary needs

Nehani,

These are wise words and should be applied to many different situations!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Sometimes its not just about "whose fault" it is. Its about making

itelligent decisions and not having to worry about how a disater could have

been avoided.

My thoughts, not yours,

Nehani >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:48:09 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Seen a God?

OH my Goddess! I love it!!!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< BUTT PRINTS IN THE SAND -- Author Unknown

One night I had a wondrous dream,

One set of footprints there was seen,

The footprints of the Goddess they were,

But mine were not along the shore.

But then some stranger prints appeared, and I asked Her,

"What have we here? These prints are large and round and neat,

But much too big to be from feet."

"My child," She said in somber tones, "For miles I carried you alone.

I challenged you to walk in faith, but you refused and made me wait."

"You would not learn, you would not grow,

The walk of faith, you would not know,

So I got tired, I got fed up,

And there I dropped you on your butt.

"Because in life, there comes a time

When one must fight, and one must climb,

When one must rise and take a stand,

Or leave their butt prints in the sand."

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:52:57 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

Arwen,

Scotti's problem with Lady Grey Cat has to do with the beginings of the SS

List. To be fair I have to agree that her post and run on that list left a

bad taste in several folks mouths.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 18:53:12 -0500

From: "Cynthia Haywood" <pyratejenni@hotmail.com>

Subject: HRE Davidson

> >

> > If you didn't recognize her initials then I guess you don't like Hilda

>E.

> > R. Davidson.

>Hey now,

> Nope, never heard of her, my reading list has close to five

>hundred books on it now, and none of them were written in the past twenty

>years. If she writes "newbie books" why would I bother?

HRE Davidson doesn't write newbie books. She's a scholar of Northen European

mythology. Her first book, _The Road to Hel _ was printed in 1942 (her

university thesis, actually) and details funerary rites in Scandinavia and

the Continent. Out of print, hard to find, but worth it, as is most of her

work, with the exception of her latest, _Role of the Northern Goddess_.

She also wrote _The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England_, and a whole slew of

articles printed in various books and journals, including "Hostile Magic in

Icelandic Sagas" from _The Witch in History_, (very good view of how seidr

was perceived" and another article that I would love to get ahold of about

fostering by giants. Long out of print, though. Bother.

Olostra

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:57:09 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Earth

Ann Marie,

Here is what I use!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

EARTH

How beautiful you are, Earth, and how sublime;

How perfect is your obedience to the light, and how noble is your submission

the Sun!

How lovely your are, veiled in shadow, and how charming your face, masked

with obscurity!

How soothing is the song of your dawn, and how harsh are the praises of your

eventides.

How perfect you are, Earth, and how majestic!

I have walked over your plains, I have climbed your stony mountings. I have

descended into your valleys; I have entered into your caves.

In the plains I found your dream; upon the mountain I found your pride; in

the valley I witnessed your tranquility; in the rocks your resolution; in the

cave your secrecy.

You are weak and powerful and humble and haughty.

You are pliant and rigid, and clear and secret.

U have ridden your seas and explored your rivers and followed your brooks.

I heard Eternity speak through your ebb and flow, and the ages echoing your

songs among your hills.

I listened to life calling to life in your mountain passes and along your

slopes.

You are the mouth and lips of Eternity, the strings and fingers of Time, the

mystery and solution of Life.

Your Spring has awakened me and led me to your fields where your aromatic

breath ascends like incense.

I have seen the fruits of your Summer labor.

In Autumn, in your vineyards, I saw your blood flow as wine.

Your Winter carried me into your bed, where the snow attested your purity.

In your Spring you are an aromatic essence; in your Summer you are generous;

in your Autumn you are a source of plenty.

One calm and clear night I opened the windows and doors of my soul and went

out to see you, my heart tense with lust and greed.

And I saw you staring at the stars that smiled at you. So I cast away my

fetters, for I found out tht the dwelling place of the soul is in your space.

Its desires grow in your desires; its peace rests in your peace; and its

happiness is in the golden dust which the stars sprinkle on your body.\

Earth - 2

One night as the skies turned grey, and my soul was wearied and anxious, I

went out to you.

And you appeared to me like a giant, armed with raging tempests, fighting the

past with the present, replacing the old with the new, and letting the strong

disperse the weak.

Whereupon I learned that the law of the people is your law.

I learned that he who does not break his dry branches with his tempest, will

die wearily.

And he who does not resolve to strip his dry leaves, will slowly perish.

How generous you are, Earth, and how strong is your yearning for your

children lost between that which they have attained and that which they could

not obtain.

WE clamor and you smile; we flit but you stay!

We blaspheme and you consecrate.

We defile and you sanctify.

We sleep without dreams; but you dream in your eternal wakefulness.

We pierce your bosom with swords and spears,

And you dress our wounds with oil and balsam.

We plant your fields with skulls and bones, and from them you rear cypress

and willow trees.

We empty our wastes in your bosom, and you fill our threshing floors with

wheat sheaves, and our winepresses with grapes.

We extract your elements to make cannons and bombs, but out of our elements

you create lilies and roses.

How patient you are, Earth, and how merciful!

Are you an atom of dust raised by the feet of God when he journeyed from the

East to the West of the Universe?

Or a spark projected from the furnace of Eternity?

Are you a seed dropped in the field of the firmament to become God's tree

reaching above the heavens with its celestial branches?

Or are you a drop of blood in the veins of the giant of giants, or a bed of

sweat upon his brow?

Are you a fruit ripened by the Sun?

Do you grow from the tree of Absolute Knowledge, whose roots extend through

the Infinite?

Are you a jewel placed by the God of Time in the palm of the God of Space?

Earth - 3

Who are you, Earth, and what are you?

You are "I", Earth!

You are my sight and my discernment.

You are my knowledge and my dream.

You are my hunger and my thirst.

You are my sorrow and my joy.

You are my inadvertence and my wakefulness.

You are the beauty that lives in my eyes, in the longing in my heart, the

everlasting life in my soul.

You are "I", Earth.

Had it not been for my being, you would not have been.

--Kahlil Gibran

>>I am going to contribute more to this discussion, I just have to fix my

thoughts, feelings, instinctive reactions into words.

Ann Marie

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:31:21 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

--- dragonsfl@aol.com wrote:

> ***I agree that each complaint would need to be

> looked into. I also agree that things should not

> chased away without a reason but I do think that if

> counseling and talking does not work and the problem

> keeps repeating then notifying community is right. I

> also disagree that keeping folks who want to harm

> our community is wise.

I agree. Repeating patterns of destructive

behavior are an indication of greater disorders. Now,

this is where the tricky part comes in. This person

might be just having some mental problems. Get the

guy into some professional counseling, a little

prescription, and bingo, Johnny Asshole becomes John

Q. Community. On the other hand, Johnny Asshole may

very well just be Johnny Asshole. Then comes the

question of how to handle him? Maybe he is just

facing some hidden issues, maybe he just needs a

positive role model, maybe he just needs his

ass-kicked. It is a fine line to walk sometimes, and

the community must take care in handling these

situations. Normally, if someone is harmful enough to

the community that they need to be gotten rid of, then

they are usually breaking a law, and if they are

breaking the law, then the system is in place to make

it easy. If they are just being an asshole and being

disruptive to the community, then each and every case

should be handled individually on a case by case

basis. Generally, if this person is problematic, word

will start to get around. For instance, if he is

demanding payments from coven members, those coveners

are going to have casual conversation and discover

everyone else doesn't have to do that, and it is

considered un-ethical. If he is trading his position

for sex, it will start to get around. The community

will react to these sorts of things, and the community

will put a stop to it.

> Some folks just are not worth saving. I used to want

> to save everyone and I believed that everyone could

> be saved, then I grew up!

You are going to get no argument from me there! Some

people are just in the wrong place at that point in

time and that community is just not the right

combination of people. In that situation, something

has to give. If the atmosphere is that charged and

someone person is causing that much trouble for the

rest of the people, then that person has to go. It is

a very tribal concept and one that I can identify with

very well. The tricky thing is to do it in such a way

so as to cause the least harm. That is the challenge

of leadership.

> What I am talking about is basic behaviors the one's

> that eveyone who should be in community all ready

> follows. There would have to be great care taken so

> that there could be NOTHING done out of "someone

> pissed me off" because that is not what this

> community is about. What I am discussing is just

> what you are discribing but with the understanding

> that not everyone has accessibility to Elders, and

> with the rate we are growing with solitaire's we

> will have more folks than ever that will have no

> recourse. Otherwise we are not evolving with the

> times.

See, here is where your concepts and my concepts

start to merge. If you look back at the original

model, and place the greater community in it's

configuration, then everyone *would* have a ready

access to the whole community, solitaire or no. If

the Pagan Community in the whole South-East is

conjoined in the gathering cycles, and the Elders are

meeting regularly with each other, and the community

population is getting regular exposure across the

board, then everyone not only has access, but also has

familiarity. Familiarity is what will establish the

system of cross-communication. One doesn't have to be

in a Coven to go to a gather, one merely has to show

up. If we have all these Elders and such walking

around teaching classes and what-not, they will be

easily identified after a while. To bring something

to the attention of the community, any covener,

solitaire or visitor need simply grab the sleeve of

one of these people and ask for a moment of their

time.

> *** OH now it is my system or your system? LOL We

> do like to fight don't we Scotti? :) Okay Let's go

> with your system it works much like my system but

> your is for the members of a tight knit community,

> and it would work. But what happens to the folks who

> are not in a tight knit community? Are they seen as

> any less worthy being solitaires or whatever? Should

> they not have some kind of recourse, or are we going

> to say to the predetors hey leave my folks alone and

> go feed on those folks over there they are not under

> my wing?

LOL! A good healthy debate is the spice of life

that makes it all worth living! Actually, the

"system" reference is harking back to the model I was

referring to earlier. Now, the idea is to not leave

the individuals out, but instead to encourage them to

participate. Basically, to recreate the festivals of

the Ancient World more closely to what they were back

then. One didn't go to a festival only if one were a

member of a certain Clan. Everyone that could afford

to went. At the Gathers, we could develop the whole

community into a tight-knit community. Everyone who

wants to participate could find that outlet. The key

is to find something tangible to base it around, say

for example, the Pagan Village concept that is

centered around a Pagan Business Cooperative, or a

Community Operated Central Gathering site, or a

Confederated Gathering Celebration Cycle. Having a

physical representation of *place* could give us the

vehicle we need to organize into a tight knit regional

community as opposed to a collection of several

groups.

> *** I think I see some of the problem I am not

> saying that Craft people can not go to the police

> for breaking the law of Man. If someone is raped,

> murdered, steals, or whatever, srue go to the police

> but don't take "Craft issues" to the cops. Craft

> issues remain within Craft". But your system does

> not address those not in a coven or group.

> Love and Honor,

> Cerridwyn Stormdragon

Well, yes it does and no it does not. Basically,

I am seeing a way to bring the greater community into

a more communicative, cooperative community. This

includes Covens, Groups, Solitaires and it includes

all the many various paths, traditions and off-shoots

thereof. If someone wants to participate in the

community, then yes, there will be a ready vehicle

there. If someone makes the conscious effort to not

participate, I am not sure how these folks would be

able to be assisted by the greater community. Maybe

so by individuals, but not by the whole of the

community. If you build it, and they come, then you

got a great game going on. If you build it, and they

do not come, then all you have is a good idea and

nothing more. Of course, if the community development

IS successful, then they will want to come. They will

want to participate and they will want to help make it

better than it was. They will want to bring their

issues to the community and seek help to address

grievances. I don't know, maybe we can have a

showcase set up convention style at the gatherings to

help identify where folks can get help, guidance or

assistance in what they need!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

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Message: 16

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:34:44 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Gossip.

Agreed!

But even the longest journey of a thousand miles can't

begin until you take the first step! To paraphrase

someone elses wisdom!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

--- dragonsfl@aol.com wrote:

> YES Scotti,

> I can imagine it! I believe that we are going to

> have to grow to embrase

> the changing times or I believe it will become

> chaos.

> Love and Honor,

> Cerridwyn Stormdragon

> << There is

> supposed to be a standard of social behavior, and

> the

> greater community is supposed to guard against it.

> Right now we will not be effective because we are

> all

> secluding ourselves. >>

> << Can you imagine it?>>>

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Message: 17

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:42:28 -0700

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

Subject: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

Well, since she was the ex of Wil Serphant, maybe she had a touch of

bitterness left? I don't know. I have never asked her about that. I have

always found GC to be humorous, cranky at times, and a totally marvelous

human. Of course, if she ticked off SS, grin, you will pardon me for

thinking that a good thing. I am human! I do appreciate both your and

Scotti's input though!

Arwen

----- Original Message -----

From: <dragonsfl@aol.com>

| Scotti's problem with Lady Grey Cat has to do with the beginings of the

| List. To be fair I have to agree that her post and run on that list left a

| bad taste in several folks mouths.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:13:06 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Well excuuuuuuze me!

OMG! For once Scotti we agree, and as for rope I always keep a good supply

right next to my duct tape! LOL

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< But to puke on ones DOG! That there's a

shootin' offense! Somebody get a rope and save the

bullet! :-)

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:16:29 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Julia,

Maybe that is it OR maybe it is the fact that you and your cheerleaders

keep smearing it in her face! The way I see it she is just answering in kind.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< On the surface that's how it's being framed, but the bottom line is that

Betsy hasn't been able to shove her definition of who gets to be a witch

down my and a few other throats. For some reason this really bothers

her. Other people have had various opinions but she's become obsessed with

me. She's so wound up now that she just can't let go. Kind of sad really.

Julia >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:20:51 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Fact or Fiction?

Betsy,

This thread has gone past the point of boring. I agree that she does not

fit my defination either but alas they so want to change your mind! :(

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Gee...and maybe if you read the archives before jumping into a thread, you

would realize how wrong you are. What part of "BY MY DEFINITION, Julia is not

a Witch" do you not understand?? Would you please take the time to review

what was actually said before you waste more bandwidth on redundant posts??

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:28:06 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Oh Enyo,

Get feeling better!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< <drags self into sitting position> Pain meds aren't working. I wouldn't

say no to a bong hit over here...

Enyo (who is suffering an as-of-yet undetermined illness) >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:29:57 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Julia,

Okay who's being an immature ass here? LOL

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< (Ok Betsy, post a reply, only this time try and make it really nasty and

full of insults, ~oh, and work the name 'Julia' in as often as possible) >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:47:06 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Information was Re: my bitch

Well if you ever decide to go more public, please place me on your mailing

list! I love unusual handmade stuff!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< If there's real interest I'll get on it.

RobII >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:55:10 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

Arwen,

She is okay right now and the pace maker is in place. Hopefully now all she

has to do is heal! The funny part is when the doctor told her that she had to

curtail her activities for a while which included playing music and having

sex 5X a week she tried to hit him! Gotta love the old girl! When I grow up I

want to be just like my Granny!LOL

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Is she ok at this point? Do you need candles lit?

Arwen

who really isn't a heartless bitch. >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:07:15 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Gossip.

Scotti,

Let's place it on the Calendar and check the stars, something has to be out

of whack because we find ourselves agreeing too much these days! ROFLMAO!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon :)

<< Agreed!

But even the longest journey of a thousand miles can't

begin until you take the first step! To paraphrase

someone elses wisdom!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti >>

________________________________________________________________________

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Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 399

Date: 2/3/2002

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Yankees....

From: Goldddustwoman@aol.com

2. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

3. Re: Yankees....

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

4. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

5. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

6. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

7. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

8. Re: Yankees....

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

9. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

10. Re: Earth

From: "loraxsft" <lornax@cstone.net>

11. Re: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

12. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: Elizabeth <Elizabeth9566728@yahoo.com>

13. Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

14. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

15. Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

16. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

17. Re: Earth

From: "loraxsft" <lornax@cstone.net>

18. Re: Re: Earth

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

19. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

20. RE: Yankees....

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

21. Re: Yankees....

From: "goldddustwoman1" <Goldddustwoman@aol.com>

22. Re: Left coast insanity????

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

23. Re: Left coast insanity????

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

24. Re: Yankees....

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

25. Re: Yankees....

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:18:34 EST

From: Goldddustwoman@aol.com

Subject: Yankees....

Scoti opined:

> Naw! You see, that just ain't how we play the

> game! Unless you come from a state that had a

> physical representation in the Congress of the

> Confederate States of America, y'all are a Yankee!

<<snipped for southern politeness>>

Hail to Scotti in his Supreme Southerness!

(And yes, all you linguists, I know that is not a word. My s/o's mother is a

Doctor of English *and* Education. Believe me, she will correct me and

anyone else around her at ANY time.)

Anyhoo...I refer to someone as being a "Yankee" if they live ABOVE the

Mason-Dixon line. That is what I have been taught all my life. We don't

have too many Canadians here. I don't think they like the climate in

Southern Alabama.

Namaste!

~O~ Mia ~O~

(Great-Great-Great Niece of "Fighting" Joe Wheeler, Alabama born Confederate

General, Major General in the Spanish-American War, and later, Brigadier

General in the U.S. Army)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:25:59 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

In a message dated 2/2/02 6:32:24 PM Central Standard Time,

scottia_37@yahoo.com writes:

Scotti,

It is a wonderful thought is it not? Think of the repercussions of so many

pagans standing on common ground! But alas how do we go past the dream stage

to the reality stage?

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Of course, if the community development

IS successful, then they will want to come. They will

want to participate and they will want to help make it

better than it was. They will want to bring their

issues to the community and seek help to address

grievances. I don't know, maybe we can have a

showcase set up convention style at the gatherings to

help identify where folks can get help, guidance or

assistance in what they need!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:38:19 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Yankees....

Scotti does have quite a way with words! LOL<wink> He is one of the few men I

have met that can carry on a conversation as well in person as he writes.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Hail to Scotti in his Supreme Southerness!

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:47:18 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Cerridwyn wished:

>Oh Enyo,

> Get feeling better!

Thanks. The doctor gave me a scrip for 375mg naproxyn, which is like a

*really* strong ibuprofin/aspirin type thing. I just wish they'd get the

blood work in and fix it, or put me to sleep.

This sux. :-P I hate being sick; it makes me whiny and even bitchier than

usual.

Enyo

"I am a kind of paranoiac in reverse. I suspect people of plotting to make

me happy."

J.D. Salinger

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:45:10 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Cerridwyn offered her 2�:

>Julia,

> Maybe that is it OR maybe it is the fact that you and your cheerleaders

>keep smearing it in her face! The way I see it she is just answering in kind.

Cerridwyn, what's so different about your support of Betsy's PoV and my

support of Julia's? Admittedly, we are both biased, as we know the

individual whom we are backing better than the other.

IMO, there's no difference. We all have our opinions. They just happen to

be differing ones.

Enyo

"If you can't be good, be good at it."

--Samuel Cutler

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:51:12 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

Cerridwyn wrote:

>Arwen,

> She is okay right now and the pace maker is in place. Hopefully now all

> she

>has to do is heal!

Good. My best regards to you and yours.

Enyo (who isn't a complete and total bitch)

"Immature love says: 'I love you because I need you.' Mature love says: 'I

need you because I love you.'"

--Erich Fromm

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:50:15 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Cerridwyn attempted the voice of reason:

>Julia,

> Okay who's being an immature ass here? LOL

<giggles> It takes two, you know... Betsy and Julia both seem content to

pick each other apart. But if it's going to be done in an open list, of

course, people will offer their 2�... Just like you did when you responded

to Julia, and just as I am doing now in responding to you.

Personally, I laughed at Julia's post. I love the Fish to bits; she's

always a source of amusement for me. :-)

Enyo

"Sanity calms, but madness is more interesting."

--John Russell

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:54:05 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

Mia wrote:

>Anyhoo...I refer to someone as being a "Yankee" if they live ABOVE the

>Mason-Dixon line. That is what I have been taught all my life.

I've always been taught that being a Yankee is for those BORN above the

Mason-Dixon line.

>We don't

>have too many Canadians here.

Want some of ours? We've got a buttload in BFE, Florida.

>I don't think they like the climate in

>Southern Alabama.

<sigh> They love the climate here.

Which area of Bama are you in? My daddy's from Arab. In fact, I'm related

to the whole damned town, so I pretty much can't date in AL if I want my

family tree to continue to fork. :-P

Enyo (who has heard family legends of founders of the Klan in her

ancestry... but has, as of yet, failed to trace beyond grandparents)

"She's sick and twisted. I admire that in a woman."

-- Marquis de Sade

ICQ: 136952092 AIM: Enyo War Goddess

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:02:48 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

--- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

<<The Church of Kern site, which links to the Holy

Icon, is now a part of my site. The direct link is>>

The only scary part is that trads have popped up

behind things like this.....

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 03:11:47 -0000

From: "loraxsft" <lornax@cstone.net>

Subject: Re: Earth

Thank you for the poem

It will help to describe to friends who ask whats a Giast and how can

you be a witch and not believe in God/Godess Cerridwyn Stormdragon,

Peace at ya

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:08:41 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re: PAGAN MANNERS OR Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?

Scotti sighed:

>Does anybody got a mountain anywhere they wanna sell

>me?

Funny that you would write that... In my granddaddy's estate, there was

essentially half a mountain in Waverly, TN. My grandma sold it to the guy

that owned the other half of the mountail. :-)

TN has really cheap real estate, particularly when you get out into the

more remote areas in the foot hills and mountains, but not too close to

Gatlinburg.

Enyo

"...the line of worshippers at the altars of ignorance and intolerance are

quite long and each line seems to be growing steadily. "

--Therion 11-28-2001

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:18:24 -0500

From: Elizabeth <Elizabeth9566728@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

On Saturday 02 February 2002 22:02,Toria wrote:

> --- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <<The Church of Kern site, which links to the Holy

> Icon, is now a part of my site. The direct link is>>

> The only scary part is that trads have popped up

> behind things like this.....

> ~Toria~

No, what is *really* scary is that Holy Icon...ouch!!!

Elizabeth

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:16:49 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Enyo,

There isn't any difference, we do have different opinions and that is fine

with me. But since Betsy has clairfied her statement saying that is her

opinion why should she have to change her opinion? Why not just let it rest?

Now this bickering over opinions is a waste of energy IN MY OPINION! But you

know what they say about opinions ...... and since I am familer with mine

I'll just keep it thank you! LOL:)

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Cerridwyn, what's so different about your support of Betsy's PoV and my

support of Julia's? Admittedly, we are both biased, as we know the

individual whom we are backing better than the other.

IMO, there's no difference. We all have our opinions. They just happen to

be differing ones.

Enyo

"If you can't be good, be good at it."

--Samuel Cutler >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:21:18 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Enyo,

I know, just had a bad bout of the flu myself and since on my good days

folks think I am a bitch, I am sure that I have been more than a handful

lately. LOL Try kicking the naproxyn with a couple of moltrin, it usally

works. Take care and get well!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< This sux. :-P I hate being sick; it makes me whiny and even bitchier

than

usual.

Enyo >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:22:27 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: an interesting bit of fluff...

Thank you Enyo!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Good. My best regards to you and yours.

Enyo (who isn't a complete and total bitch) >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:27:00 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Enyo,

You know it is hard to argue if the other person does not comply! LOL I had

an arguement with myself once but it just was not as much fun! <wink> But I

do know some folks that could have an entire war with themselves!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< <giggles> It takes two, you know... Betsy and Julia both seem content to

pick each other apart. But if it's going to be done in an open list, of

course, people will offer their 2�... Just like you did when you responded

to Julia, and just as I am doing now in responding to you.

Personally, I laughed at Julia's post. I love the Fish to bits; she's

always a source of amusement for me. :-)

Enyo >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 03:27:44 -0000

From: "loraxsft" <lornax@cstone.net>

Subject: Re: Earth

--- In WitchWars@y..., "loraxsft" <lornax@c...> wrote:

> Thank you for the poem

> It will help to describe to friends who ask whats a Giast and how

can

> you be a witch and not believe in God/Godess Cerridwyn Stormdragon,

> Peace at ya

> Ed

Opps! didn't delete the last part was refuring to Cerridwyn just

didnt get it all sniped out

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:31:49 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Earth

Ed,

It was shared with me by my High Priestess and while I interpeted it

differently than you did I am more than happy to share. It is a wonderful

poem that deserves much thought (at least that is what she told me when she

had me tear it appart)LOL.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Thank you for the poem

It will help to describe to friends who ask whats a Giast and how can

you be a witch and not believe in God/Godess Cerridwyn Stormdragon,

Peace at ya

Ed >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:25:35 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Cerridwyn pointed out:

>Enyo,

> There isn't any difference, we do have different opinions and that is fine

>with me.

If we had the same opinions, I would be very, very bored.

>But since Betsy has clairfied her statement saying that is her

>opinion why should she have to change her opinion?

No, she shouldn't. The part that got *my* attention was her assertion that

deists laugh. <shrugs>

Had she said, "I find so-called atheist witches to be a joke," it would

have been an entirely different matter. :-)

>Why not just let it rest?

<grins> You should know by now that the quickest way to let a thread die

is to stop responding to it.

>Now this bickering over opinions is a waste of energy IN MY OPINION!

<giggles> So stop responding, silly! Eventually, it will die out.

>But you

>know what they say about opinions ...... and since I am familer with mine

>I'll just keep it thank you! LOL:)

Hey, it's your opinion, and your... anyway. Yeah. Let's just go with

that. ;-)

Enyo

"Relationships should come with those little black boxes that airplanes

have. That way, when they crash and burn, we'd actually get some answers."

--Corrina Bunch

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:54:45 -0500

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

Subject: RE: Yankees....

-----Original Message-----

From: Enyo [mailto:enyo@paganportals.com]

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:54 PM

<<I've always been taught that being a Yankee is for those BORN above the

Mason-Dixon line.>>

I am a Southerner as well. And I was taught the same thing. A Yank is *born*

above the Mason-Dixon. But then again I am not a Rebel (Civil War) because I

am a Native Floridian. And if I remember correctly FL was not part of the

either at that time. (I am _very_ bad with History)

<<Want some of ours? We've got a buttload in BFE, Florida.>>

South FL too babe. All winter long my family and I joke that there are alot

of people who are very lost. ;-) (we joke about that whenever we see a

license plate that is not local.

<< <sigh> They love the climate here.>>

I love the Sexy Red-Heads near the central part of the state. ;-)

<<Which area of Bama are you in? My daddy's from Arab. In fact, I'm

related to the whole damned town, so I pretty much can't date in AL if I

want my family tree to continue to fork. :-P>>

Sisters were born in Huntsville.

Sunshine

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 04:20:01 -0000

From: "goldddustwoman1" <Goldddustwoman@aol.com>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

--- In WitchWars@y..., Enyo <enyo@p...> wrote:

>> I've always been taught that being a Yankee is for those BORN

above the

> Mason-Dixon line.

Yeah, that too. :-)

> Want some of ours? We've got a buttload in BFE, Florida.

I love Canadians! I like to hear them talk. *gryn*

> Which area of Bama are you in? My daddy's from Arab. In fact, I'm

> to the whole damned town, so I pretty much can't date in AL if I

want my

> family tree to continue to fork. :-P

I'm currently in Birmingham. Lived in Montgomery for 26 years. I

know exactly where Arab is. I have a good friend that lives there.

She's a transplant from California, so I doubt you're related to

her. :-)

Namaste!

~O~ Mia ~O~

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:27:52 -0500

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Left coast insanity????

Thanks!

----- Original Message -----

From: Herb Mitchell

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 4:50 AM

Subject: RE: [WitchWars] Left coast insanity????

Check it out at www.snopes.com only partly true.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:43:22 -0500

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Left coast insanity????

Hmmmm...... Negative in Glendale...... I checked out snopes.com which Herb directed me to and from what I read there it seems to be on a district by district interpretation. It would be interesting to find out how many districts took the 'more liberal' approach though.

For anybody who missed it, that link was -> http://www.snopes2.com/religion/islam.htm

Carl

----- Original Message -----

From: Raven Scott

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 11:44 AM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Left coast insanity????

----- Original Message -----

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

>> I need somebody here to verify or dispell for me wether it is true that

CA seventh graders are having to take mandatory muslim classes? Or is it

just in certain cities in CA? I have also heard that they are being forced

to 'act out' a Jyhad amongst their classmates. Is there any truth to this

insanity?<<

My oldest grandson is in 7th grade in Glendale, CA... neither muslim study

nor enacted jihads are on his list of things the school system is sticking

him with.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:42:08 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

Well my dear friends, this Canadian in Macon just did a search of

Mason-Dixon Line and it seems that the only official meaning it has is as

the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland as established by the Court

Chancery of England based on surveys conducted in 1763 by Charles Mason and

Jeremiah Dixon. The line exists at 39�43' north (15 miles south of

Philadelphia). It is only 244 miles long. Other than that it is a completely

imaginary and meaningless distinction that not one of you could find on any

map.

Now you may think that anyone born North of Maryland is a Yankee but to

the rest of the world, who do not identify themselves in such uniquely

American terms, we are not Yankees. In fact, if you want to put it to an

international vote, all ya'll is Yankees no matter what side of the nonline

you were born on. So there! Scotti is more of a Yankee than I'll ever be,

hah! How do you like them apples Mr. Ice Skating God? Feeling a little BLUE

right now?

My thoughts, not Yankee thoughts,

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:48:43 -0700

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

| Now you may think that anyone born North of Maryland is a Yankee but

| the rest of the world, who do not identify themselves in such uniquely

| American terms, we are not Yankees. In fact, if you want to put it to an

| international vote, all ya'll is Yankees no matter what side of the

nonline

| you were born on. So there! Scotti is more of a Yankee than I'll ever be,

| hah! How do you like them apples Mr. Ice Skating God? Feeling a little

BLUE

| right now?

| My thoughts, not Yankee thoughts,

| Nehani

Now Nehani, darlin' handsome man, don't make me come back to Georgia just to

open up a can of whoop-ass on your word-correct but usage-wrong self. I

would hate to muss my hair (said as two syllables please. Hay er) or break a

finger nail, but if I cracked a high heel, then I would just have to have a

come apart and then where would we be?

Back to you being a Yankee and me not.

heeheehee

Arwen

Southern Belle and proud of it.

________________________________________________________________________

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 400

Date: 2/3/2002

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: The irony of it all

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

2. Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

3. Re: Re: Re: Information

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

4. Re: HRE Davidson

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

5. Re: Re: The irony of it all

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

6. Re: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

7. Re: Yankees....

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

8. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

9. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

10. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

11. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

12. Good for the goose...

From: "Julie Keegan" <majamoo@ozemail.com.au>

13. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

14. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

15. Good for the goose...

From: "Julie Keegan" <majamoo@ozemail.com.au>

16. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

17. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

18. Re: Digest Number 395

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

19. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

20. Good for the goose...

From: "Julie Keegan" <majamoo@ozemail.com.au>

21. Re: Yankees....

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

22. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

23. Re: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

24. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

25. Re: Re:Dirt

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:05:07 -0500

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: The irony of it all

Fred!, good points. I think it is really similar to a woman I was listening to on the radio today. She was arguing that a certain ad by Carl's Jr. burger chain should be pulled. In the ad a group of men are holding up a chicken examining it and making comments about "...where are its nuggets..." etc. She was representing a group that protects poultry. It was interesting but I was instantly turned off and filed her under 'frootloops' when as the host was refering to 'nuggets','tenders','hotwings','chicken','meat', she continued to refer only to not having any taste or desire for eating a 'corpse' or 'carrion'. Then it got worse when she as a 'doctor' (of what was never said) and was using the 'DR.' label to hit the host stated she didn't care if a chicken was male or female.....Hmmm. (Aren't ALL chickens female?)[Anybody from NC KNOWS roosters AREN'T chickens!]

We need to keep in mind that anytime we are presenting a persuasive argument to use a vocabulary with emotional indices that are favorable from the listeners point of view.

Carl

----- Original Message -----

From: Fred

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 3:36 PM

Subject: [WitchWars] The irony of it all

I have found the whole atheist witch thread to be

ironic. Here's why:

<<<<<<whack>>>>>>

Since I typed this entire email and it is based solely

on my interpretations and perceptions of the events

that have transpired, it is all my own damn opinion!

Fred

__________________________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:06:43 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Good for the goose...

>>>You understand incorrectly. Popular netiquette is that .signatures do

not contain advertising, and are four lines or less in length. They're

supposed to be primarily contact information, although there's also the

>>>traditional pithy quotation.

Actually, what's in my sig line is contact info. I can be contacted at any of those places. They are websites, not advertisements. Besides the fact that I've seen longer ones on this list.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

I have a list also here at this site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

I have a community on msn communities also:

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I moderate this one with AoB:

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:14:16 -0800 (PST)

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Information

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Ann Marie wrote:

> >not putting you down or the author either I don't know her. I'm just not

> >up to adding more books to the pile right now.

> None of the above really. HERD is a historian and/or archeologist. She

> has been publishing for 40 or 50 years now, I think. I know she used to be

> greatly respected for her historical accuracy. Her older books are better

> then her more contemporary ones. The oldest I have been able to read is

> "Pagan Scandinavia" published in the 50's or early 60's. It belonged to a

> library and I couldn't get them to sell it to me.

Hey now,

Now I've got egg to remove from my face.

I have read that. I've also read "The road to

hel, funreary practices in Scandinavia" and I've got "the sword in Anglo

saxon england in the stacks... My bad. Too many books, too many authors.

Sorry about that.

> >I know the books arn't on the net nor are they in english.

> >However a friend of Diana Paxson whose name escapes me right now got

> >permission to study them for his disertation, and when he's done they may

> >well end up in a book or on the net.

> Sorry, I didn't think it was possible, I just asked out of hope.

Give it time bits will show. Lots of bits are obvious if you just look at

things. Look at the carvings and read the bits assosiated with them and

you'll see obvious discrepencys.

> Fantastic! I have always wondered what parts of the eddas were missing.

Well remember that they wqere written by "the opposition" and those folk

wanted to make things sound ruder than they were, also much of that stuff

was of the warrior cult that outsiders knew. For every one of the folk who

went viking there were ten or more who despised the whole game.

Funny, you never hear about all of the peaceful trading that happened or

the exploration, just the battles. I s'pose that's the exciting parts

though.

> >religion as a living thing. Although if you should go that far north with

> >an awareness of what was you can clearly see what is...

> Oh I wish. Sweden and Norway are two places on my 'wish to visit'

> list. If I were younger I might consider moving there. It wouldn't be

> fair to my son to move there now. I really couldn't take him that far from

> his father, no matter how I may feel about the man.

It's not really that expensive. O.k. you may have to plan it for a couple

of years but it'd be worth it and the more cosmopolitan folk even speak

english. Moving there for good would be hard to pull off, but a learning

vacation isn't too bad.

> >That's o.k. I won't hold it against you (damn square heads!), What is the

> >other quarter?

> I take it that remark was about the Norwegian side.

Ja sorry, old habits and all... I expected "Swedish devil" in return...

As I was told,

> English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Norman French. In fact my maiden name is

> supposed to be Norman. It's Bufford. Yes I know that the most recent

> genetic research say that most people in the UK have a great deal of

> Scandinavian genes in them.

Ah yes, the usual American mutt mix ;-) . good solid vicious folk all of

them the best people are desended from rouges.

And yes lots of Scandi in the Britts. Does anyone really think red hair is

an Irish genetic trait?

> I live outside a town called Windsor in southern Virginia. No I don't get

> to any Cons or festivals usually. Except for the Gatherings which I run

> registration for. We do have a few slots left for Vendors at the Spring

> Gathering. April 25-28 here at the campground . . . hint hint.

Boy howdy! that'd be a long drive... I don't think I want to carry a

bunch of blades on an airliner "No really, they're for religious

purposes". Although I am looking to add a few more shows to the list...

RobII

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Erica Frank & Rob CarterII

elfwreck@idiom.com

"Everybody understands Mickey mouse.

Few understand Herman Hesse.

Hardly anyone understands Albert Einstein.

And nobody understands Emperor Norten"

-Malaclypse the younger-

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:17:21 -0800 (PST)

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

Subject: Re: HRE Davidson

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Cynthia Haywood wrote:

> HRE Davidson doesn't write newbie books. She's a scholar of Northen European

> mythology. Her first book, _The Road to Hel _ was printed in 1942 (her

> university thesis, actually) and details funerary rites in Scandinavia and

> the Continent. Out of print, hard to find, but worth it, as is most of her

> work, with the exception of her latest, _Role of the Northern Goddess_.

> She also wrote _The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England_, and a whole slew of

> articles printed in various books and journals, including "Hostile Magic in

> Icelandic Sagas" from _The Witch in History_, (very good view of how seidr

> was perceived" and another article that I would love to get ahold of about

> fostering by giants. Long out of print, though. Bother.

> Olostra

Hey now,

As I said just before, I'm red faced as hel now. I've read some of

her stuff and have others on the stacks, oops! my bad.

So much time, so little to do. Uh, strike that, reverse it....

RobII

*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*

elfwreck@idiom.com Erica Frank & Rob Carter II

"The Major is a good man, means well and works hard.

Unfortunately, he would not be able to get a clue if he went out into a

field full of horny clues during mating season, smeared his naked body

with clue musk and danced the ritual clue mating dance."

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 02:51:13 -0500

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: The irony of it all

Carl wrote:

[Anybody from NC KNOWS roosters AREN'T chickens!]

Roosters may not be hens, but in the biology

department at my alma mater, as well as the TN

Agricultural Extension Service, they are still

chickens.

http://krisjones.tripod.com

ICQ: 9074244 AOL IM: kriscerz

"Seize the moment. Remember all the

women who waved off the dessert cart on

the Titanic." --Erma Bombeck

http://www.care2.com - Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife!

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 03:12:25 -0500

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

OK, Oh, Great Kern...you've made a believer out

of me.

I think my good Southern Kernalite name would be

"Dern." At least, that's what people say when

they see me coming. ;-)

http://krisjones.tripod.com

ICQ: 9074244 AOL IM: kriscerz

"Seize the moment. Remember all the

women who waved off the dessert cart on

the Titanic." --Erma Bombeck

http://www.care2.com - Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife!

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 04:14:32 -0500

From: "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

> Back to you being a Yankee and me not.

> heeheehee

> Arwen

> Southern Belle and proud of it.

Howzitgoin eh,

Hell no, but I can negotiate.

You and Scotti agree to the FACT that I am not a Yankee, as Betsy and

Catseye have both already stated and I'll accept that you aren't one either.

I am a Canuck, Snowbird, Goddamn Canuck, Canadian, Canadien or even a Loyal

Subject of Her Majesty The Queen. But Dammit Jim, I aint no Yankee.

Let's be reasonable. Where I come from even the folks in Montana are

Southerners and if your going to call anyone north of the M-D Line a Yankee,

it stands to reason that anyone south of it is a Southerner. Do you really

want to claim Fidel Castro as one of your own? Me thinks not. Besides,

Canada is and has been since 1867.............Are you ready for it? Insert

drum roll badabadabadabadabadaboom.............. a CONFEDERACY! And we had

to run the Damn Yankees out of Canada to do that.

So, bring on the whoop-ass, bust a nay-yul or fling grits all over

Waffle House but it doesn't change a damn thing.

Heeheehee.

My giggle, not yours eh

Nehani

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 02:32:11 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

>>>Hun, what you have is not a sig line, that is a fucking billboard.

OIC, OTOH, if you don't mind my asking this question, why has this not been brought up anywhere else but this list? If it was a problem I would think that it would have been addressed already in the other lists.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883 AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

http:http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:50:24 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

>>> Isis observed:

>>> Good grief! Is that what this whole shit storm/bitchfest has been

>>> about? One fucking line that someone took wrong because of the way

>>> it was worded. I agree with Kern. Grow up!!

>>>

>>On the surface that's how it's being framed, but the bottom line is

>>that Julia hasn't been able to shove her definition of who gets to be a

>>witch down my and a few other throats. For some reason this really

>>bothers her. Other people have had various opinions but she's become

>>obsessed with me. She's so wound up now that she just can't let go.

>>Kind of sad really.

~~~to which Betsy cleverly replied....NOTHING AT ALL!!

> B~)

> 0====(::::::::::::::::>

> Betsy Ashby

> mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

> http://www.OutoftheDark.com

Um....Betsy? Was there a post here or did you just get all excited and hit

send before you could think of a good insult?

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:08:28 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Sister Fern writes:

> I didn't comment at the time, because the mental imagery was too

> astounding, but I don't think I've ever seen so many adjectives used in

> one sentence to describe a person as I did in one of Betsy's last

> posts...maybe you should be proud you're setting some new kind of

> record?

Yes, that *was* funny. It's nice to see that she puts so much effort in.

Although claiming that she's mimicking me with that is a bit of a stretch.

In fact I'd like to see *any* post that that is mimicking.

>If this attention continues, maybe Lord Kern will promote you

> to his right hand

Right hand, left hand....I'll put all of him to good use.

Vern

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:11:49 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

> Isis observed:

> I've noticed. Now she has started in on me. Picking at my sig line.

> As I understand it, you can advertise anything you want in a sig line.

> It's when you post an advertisement directly to the list that you can't

> do it. I have done nothing wrong. Neither have you.

Lacking any real content she'll just attack anything. Nothing is too

menial. Sig line, where you live.....lacking even that, she'll just make

something up and repeat it a few times.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:19:31 +1100

From: "Julie Keegan" <majamoo@ozemail.com.au>

Subject: Good for the goose...

Far out...I'm glad she can't see the size of my ass then or I'd be in some

Real trouble...

Fern(well endowed)

----- Original Message -----

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

> Lacking any real content she'll just attack anything. Nothing is too

> menial. Sig line, where you live.....lacking even that, she'll just make

> something up and repeat it a few times.

> Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:14:56 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> WOO HOO!

> Does that mean we are going to start calling it a

> "Kernanalia"!? ;-)

Kern-analia? You can if you like, I don't accept back door deliveries.

> And does this mean we are all "Kernals"? I kind of

> like that...Kernal Hamilton. It sings for me!

I don't presume to speak for Lord Kern, but in general if you like it I

like it.

Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:18:29 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

> Far out...I'm glad she can't see the size of my ass then or I'd be in

> some Real trouble...

> Fern(well endowed)

Doesn't matter. She's suffering from Gestational Tourrette's Syndrome and

just erupts with crude comments without cause or warning. Veracity is not

a requirement. It's a sickness. She can't help herself.

Vern

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:40:58 +1100

From: "Julie Keegan" <majamoo@ozemail.com.au>

Subject: Good for the goose...

LMAO...it's true about my ass though, so she wouldn't be lying about that

one...heheee Still, I've never encountered anyone with Tourette's in

person...does copious dribbling and forehead slapping accompany the

obscenities and grunting? That could be fun to watch ;)

Fern

----- Original Message -----

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

> Doesn't matter. She's suffering from Gestational Tourrette's Syndrome and

> just erupts with crude comments without cause or warning. Veracity is not

> a requirement. It's a sickness. She can't help herself.

> Vern

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:38:55 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> And Julia, let me assure you that living in Toronto and Montreal

> does

> not qualify you to say you live "all over Canada"! Canada is

> approximately one third larger than the United States and no two

> cities, especially two cities only a few hours apart from each other,

> can qualify as "all over Canada"! In fact you were unfortunate enough

> to have experienced only the worst of my nation and missed all the best

> parts completely.

> Your welcome,

> Nehani

That's nice Nehani, but what I actually WROTE was, that I've lived all over

the US and Canada. Not all over Canada...and yes I've been to quite a few

other parts of Canada as well.

Let me further explain. Betsy likes to categorize people and ideas in neat

little boxes that she can then slap a label on. For example calling me

a 'Yankee.' My comment about having lived many places was in response to

that.

Subsequently a whole thread of people debating the definition of the

word 'Yankee' and expressing pride in having been born somewhere has

developed.

I'd like to personally congratulate each and every one of you for:

1. Having been born

2. Living somewhere

3. Staying there

4. Liking it

To everyone for whom one or all of those things apply, congratulations.

Having lived many places I can honestly say that there are lots of nice

places to live. If you take pride in where you happen to live, good for

you.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:41:33 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

> LMAO...it's true about my ass though, so she wouldn't be lying about

> that one...heheee Still, I've never encountered anyone with

> Tourette's in person...does copious dribbling and forehead slapping

> accompany the obscenities and grunting? That could be fun to watch ;)

> Fern

Judging from the post with the incoherent string of insults, my guess would

be yes and also foot stomping and farting. But we really need a Betsy-cam

to know for sure.

Vern

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:44:53 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 395

> Your 25 line billboard of a signature file is annoying and in very poor

> taste. Your commercial message is longer then most of your posts. Spam

> disguised a relevant post is still spam.

> B~)

That's funny. Reposting the same comment again and again is just as much

of a waste of bandwidth.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:52:10 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> "We??" Are you starting to internalize my blanket statements now too

> Raven?? Actually, I was mimicking the behavior of several people

...and not doing a very good job of it since you have to keep explaining it.

> As I said, I treat people the way they treat me and others. Julia and

> a couple of her mouthpieces are getting what they give...and it appears

> they don't like it :-0

In fact *I* like it just fine. Your comments no longer have any relevent

information so now I'm just poking you with a stick for fun. I will

continue as long as you entertain me. Do you like it?

> You can assume anything you like. I think we have already established

> that I really don't give a rat's patoot what you think of me??

You've established that you ARE a rat's patoot, or as grown ups call it a

RAT'S ASS.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:00:05 +1100

From: "Julie Keegan" <majamoo@ozemail.com.au>

Subject: Good for the goose...

Betsy's surname is WindBreaker? Huh....maybe it's like a Betsy version of

speaking in tongues....the noise from that end would probably make a lot

more sense though, and be far less offensive.

Fern

----- Original Message -----

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

> Judging from the post with the incoherent string of insults, my guess

would

> be yes and also foot stomping and farting. But we really need a Betsy-cam

> to know for sure.

> Vern

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:02:09 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

> Well my dear friends, this Canadian in Macon just did a search of

> Mason-Dixon Line and it seems that the only official meaning it has is

> as the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland as established by the

> Court Chancery of England based on surveys conducted in 1763 by Charles

> Mason and Jeremiah Dixon. The line exists at 39�43' north (15 miles

> south of Philadelphia). It is only 244 miles long. Other than that it

> is a completely imaginary and meaningless distinction that not one of

> you could find on any map.

> Now you may think that anyone born North of Maryland is a Yankee but..

I was BORN in Maryland. Not that it matters, but there ya' go.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:04:47 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

> Betsy's surname is WindBreaker? Huh....maybe it's like a Betsy version

> of speaking in tongues....the noise from that end would probably make a

> lot more sense though, and be far less offensive.

> Fern

Well, she does spend most of her time talking through her ass, pulling

ideas out of her ass, in in general being ......an ASS.

Vern

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:08:34 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

> OK, Oh, Great Kern...you've made a believer out

> of me.

> I think my good Southern Kernalite name would be

> "Dern." At least, that's what people say when

> they see me coming. ;-)

Welcome Dern! And may you enjoy all the delights that the most delightful

Lord Kern has to offer!

Kern be with you,

Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 04:14:48 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

>>>people who joined this list specifically to defend Julia,

As most of us have already told you, she did not whine to us. Julia is perfectly capable of standing up for herself. We joined out of curiosity which is what most people who find your list located in the Yahoo directory, and are curious about what goes on, do. What part of all this do you not understand?

>>>I do remember someone mentioning something to the effect that you either never give up or don't know when to quit.

Not necessarily. Julia isn't biting on this anymore so she's looking for new people to target. But you are right, she doesn't know when to quit either.

>>>others on this list since the moment she arrived,

>From what I've seen, Julia is getting along with others on this list. Even joking with them. The only problems I've seen have come from you. But, I am behind on mail so maybe I've missed something. :-/

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883 Yahoo ID: panda97045

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

Quote for the week: "You can't please everyone all of the time!"

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 06:33:58 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Dirt

At 05:59 PM 2/2/02, "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Whooooaaaaa, that's a new one on me. I'd gone by the time the heavy

>crap started to fall, so what I know of that period is based on

>reports I got from those "left behind" as they made their respective

>exits. Nobody mentioned the allegation of romps with RJ to me, but

>they did discuss the tour guide incident in fairly gruesome detail.

Personally, I do not place much credence in the rumors. The timing is all wrong, I could never even place them in the same place at the same time. I kinda wish we could get both parties in here to clear up some of these old rumors....but I don't think that is going to happen :-/

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 401

Date: 12/30/1899

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: Yankees....

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

2. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

3. Re:Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

4. Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

5. Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

6. Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

7. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

8. Re: Re:Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

9. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

10. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

11. Re: Yankees....

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

12. Re: Good for the goose...

From: victoria T <victorias_hideaway@yahoo.com>

13. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

14. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "parmenidus" <Parmenidus@aol.com>

15. Re: names and pagan manners

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

16. RE: Yankees....

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

17. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

18. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

19. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

20. Re: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

21. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

22. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

23. Monarch's too long sig file was Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

24. Re: Yankees....

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

25. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:01:42 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Yankees....

At 11:51 PM 2/2/02, "SingingCrow" <singcrow@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> It is only 244 miles long. Other than that it is a completely

>imaginary and meaningless distinction that not one of you could find on any

>map.

Actually, it is on most Pennsylvania, Maryland, West Virginia and Virginia maps. There are also road signs that mark it on all major roads that cross it. Even the back roads in the area have signs telling you that you are crossing the Mason Dixon line, and many of them still have the original Penn and Calvert coats of arms displayed.

By the time of the War between the States, the line was known as the "official" boundary between the Northern and Southern states. It was also the boundary between "free" and "slave" states that escaped slaves could recognize because of the prominent signs.

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:56:26 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Isis Wyndsong:

> As most of us have already told you, she did not whine to us. Julia is

> perfectly capable of standing up for herself. We joined out of

> curiosity which is what most people who find your list located in the

> Yahoo directory, and are curious about what goes on, do. What part of

> all this do you not understand?

She can't understand any of it because she doesn't want to.

> Not necessarily. Julia isn't biting on this anymore so she's looking

> for new people to target. But you are right, she doesn't know when to

> quit either.

Actually Betsy has become so comical that I'm just enjoying her for

entertainment, since that's all she has to offer. Other than that I'm

not 'targeting' anyone.

> Betsy:

>>>>others on this list since the moment she arrived,

Isis:

>>From what I've seen, Julia is getting along with others on this list.

>>Even joking with them. The only problems I've seen have come from you.

>> But, I am behind on mail so maybe I've missed something. :-/

No you haven't missed anything. I'm having a good time with lots of peole

here and have enjoyed hearing their views. The endless, pointless

hairsplitting gets a bit boring.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:08:14 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re: Good for the goose...

At 07:24 AM 2/3/02, "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com> wrote:

>Actually, what's in my sig line is contact info. I can be contacted at any of those places. They are websites, not advertisements. Besides the fact that I've seen longer ones on this list.

There are advertisements for your groups and commercial websites in your signature line. You have long passed the point of "contact info" and entered the "spam zone" with a 25 line commercial advertisement at the end of every post. I have never seen a signature as long and obnoxious as yours on this, or any other list I own.

I will be putting your address in my "ignore" list. I am not going to deal with 25 lines of advertisements for a one line post. That is just beyond ridiculous. You can whine that I object to your sig for reasons other then those I have stated all you want. The fact is that it is an disgusting form of self promotion that shows no regard for group subscribers. Everyone on digest has to wade past your ego crap to get to actual posts. If nothing else, you have shown that you have no more concern for the wants and needs of others then your friend the stinkyfish has.

Betsy

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:13:44 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 07:24 AM 2/3/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>>>On the surface that's how it's being framed, but the bottom line is

>>>that Julia hasn't been able to shove her definition of who gets to be a

>>>witch down my and a few other throats. For some reason this really

>>>bothers her. Other people have had various opinions but she's become

>>>obsessed with me. She's so wound up now that she just can't let go.

>>>Kind of sad really.

>~~~to which Betsy cleverly replied....NOTHING AT ALL!!

ROFLMAO..... oh really? I only needed to change one word to make her post accurate... can you figure out what that one word was?? Rude, nasty, and slow on the uptake.... not a great combination you got going there fishy.

"On the surface that's how it's being framed, but the bottom line is

that Julia hasn't been able to shove her definition of who gets to be a

witch down my and a few other throats."

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:41:50 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 07:24 AM 2/3/02, "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com> wrote:

>Well, she does spend most of her time talking through her ass, pulling

>ideas out of her ass, in in general being ......an ASS.

Wow stinkyfish, 12 one sentence posts in one digest, and you still didn't manage to puke out anything of substance.....except to tell everyone what a fat ass you have. In fact, you seem to be rather hung up on the "ass" thing? Not exactly the queen of come backs are you???? ROFL

Personally, I like my women with a bit of heft to them, but I also like them to have a brain, so you have nothing to worry about. While you have proven to be one of the more comical on-line ego tripping posers I have encountered, it is getting rather monotonous having to explain the insults to you LOL

..and the moral of this story is "Flamebait will catch you a stinkingfish everytime" <BG>

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:35:24 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

At 01:06 AM 2/3/02, you wrote:

>Actually, what's in my sig line is contact info. I can be contacted at

>any of those places.

There is still that four line thing, hun. It *can* be shortened... Allow

me to demonstrate.

>They are websites, not advertisements.

It's still longer than netiquette standards.

>Besides the fact that I've seen longer ones on this list.

<shrugs> So, maybe they'll get a clue after seeing this.

See Isis' sig file shrink.

>Isis Wyndsong Peace

>ICQ #36771883 | AIM: miellemam | Yahoo ID: panda97045

>I have a list also here at this

>site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

>I have a community on msn communities

>also: http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

>I moderate this one with AoB: AngelicMagick-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

>Shop at my online mall! Have

>fun! http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

It's still too long, though... If you *must* have one of those links

listed, personally, I'd list the mall, and have them all crosslinked. If

they aren't pagan related, like your MSN community, I'd dump it from the

pagan mailing list sig file altogether. Also, AngelicMagick doesn't show

up as a link in some mail files. The only way to do so is to use HTML

code, which is either a no-no or is stripped out on email lists. If you

don't want to dump AngelicMagick, then put the URL, like you did with your

own list.

But I cut your sig file length in half. It could easily be cut shorter.

Enyo (whose own sig file is one too long, but neat and compact nonetheless)

"To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Hit Save Before Crashing..."

--Gwenius Maximus

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:42:52 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Anita wrote:

>OIC, OTOH, if you don't mind my asking this question, why has this not

>been brought up anywhere else but this list? If it was a problem I would

>think that it would have been addressed already in the other lists.

I don't recall you ever using a sig this long on Circle... And Gwen and I

aren't moderators on WH, so it's not really our place to address it there,

either.

Hel, I wouldn't be addressing it here at all if you hadn't screamed that

you were being picked on for it. Now take your bong hit and settle down

with your bag of doritos like a good girl. ;-)

Enyo

"I am a kind of paranoiac in reverse. I suspect people of plotting to make

me happy."

J.D. Salinger

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:48:59 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re: Good for the goose...

Betsy declared:

>I will be putting your address in my "ignore" list. I am not going to

>deal with 25 lines of advertisements for a one line post.

I think she just changed the sig file.

>That is just beyond ridiculous. You can whine that I object to your sig

>for reasons other then those I have stated all you want. The fact is that

>it is an disgusting form of self promotion that shows no regard for group

>subscribers. Everyone on digest has to wade past your ego crap to get to

>actual posts.

You know, there's really no difference in Isis having a 25 line marquis sig

and people leaving an entire post in tact. Either one makes digest a

nightmare. And they both eat up bandwidth.

>If nothing else, you have shown that you have no more concern for the

>wants and needs of others then your friend the stinkyfish has.

And no more concern for your friends who don't snip a post. <shrugs> I

wouldn't have thought bandwidth to be an issue, since people like to quote

back the entire previous post... and, if included, the post before that...

and before that...

Enyo

"Relationships should come with those little black boxes that airplanes

have. That way, when they crash and burn, we'd actually get some answers."

--Corrina Bunch

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:53:17 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Betsy sneered:

>Wow stinkyfish, 12 one sentence posts in one digest, and you still didn't

>manage to puke out anything of substance.....except to tell everyone what

>a fat ass you have.

Actually, that was Fern, not Vern who claimed a fat ass.

>Personally, I like my women with a bit of heft to them,

I wouldn't do a thing for you, then. :-)

>but I also like them to have a brain,

I've got that covered...

>...and the moral of this story is "Flamebait will catch you a

>stinkingfish everytime" <BG>

Since you find it appropriate to attempt to steal the Fish's power away by

calling her "stinkingfish", I must wonder how much power I would be able to

snatch away from you by referring to you as "Betsy Wetsy"...

Enyo (a straight tease who pretty much flirts with anything that moves

and/or has a brain)

"Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow."

--Mark Twain

http://www.paganvillages/com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 06:00:13 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Julia said:

~~~to which Betsy cleverly replied....NOTHING AT ALL!!

~~~Um....Betsy? Was there a post here or did you just get all excited and hit

send before you could think of a good insult?

Hmmm. Maybe we finally caught her at a loss for words!

She was speechless!!

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883 Yahoo ID: panda97045

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

Quote for the week: "You can't please everyone all of the time!"

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 06:10:53 -0800 (PST)

From: Queens Plaza <queensplaza2000@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

--- Julia Walkingfish <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

<<I was BORN in Maryland. Not that it matters, but

there ya' go.>>

Now *that's* funny...... lol

~Toria~

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 06:15:39 -0800 (PST)

From: victoria T <victorias_hideaway@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

--- Julia Walkingfish <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

wrote:

> Lacking any real content she'll just attack

> anything. Nothing is too

> menial. Sig line, where you live.....lacking even

> that, she'll just make

> something up and repeat it a few times.

> Julia

Hey, Im a new comer and have only posted my intro, but

this is something I have noticed going over the

archives. Anything of substance is ignored by certain

people who dont understand it. Anything that comes

from the dictionary is beaten to death, over and over

and over and over and over and over and over. Does

anyone see this or am i hallucinating?

Victoria

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 06:22:13 -0800

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Isis Wyndsong:

>>>Other than that I'm not 'targeting' anyone.

Sorry, I meant that Betsy is targeting. I should have said that more clearly.

---

Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883 Yahoo ID: panda97045

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

Quote for the week: "You can't please everyone all of the time!"

Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably

Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 15:00:00 -0000

From: "parmenidus" <Parmenidus@aol.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

--- In WitchWars@y..., victoria T <victorias_hideaway@y...> wrote:

> Anything that comes

> from the dictionary is beaten to death, over and over

> and over and over and over and over and over. Does

> anyone see this or am i hallucinating?

Nope, you are not! Real life in techno color. Shame isn't it? Where

we have a list of people saying they are witches acting like bible

thumping christians "if it ain't in the book, it can't be right." If

it ain't white than it has to be black, while forgetting the

continuum that magic works in.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 07:35:32 -0800 (PST)

From: Caora Drachiel <har_s_shabti@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: names and pagan manners

Now, if you called my office and asked for someone

other than Cat, you'd be told there was no one by that

name working there!

Cat

--- dragonsfl@aol.com wrote:

> I've had folks call my work and ask for Cerridwyn

> Stormdragon more than once.

> Now my secretary just says hey Debbie this must be

> for you! LOL But in

> reality many folks livelyhood could be hurt by this

> sort of thing!

> Love and Honor,

> Cerridwyn Stormdragon

> << Heh, I had that once. I dont' really change my

> name

> from craft to mundane much, I usually am called Cat

> and that's the end of it. >>

=====

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!

http://auctions.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:28:53 -0500

From: "Sunshine" <sun926@bellsouth.net>

Subject: RE: Yankees....

-----Original Message-----

From: SingingCrow [mailto:singcrow@bellsouth.net]

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 11:42 PM

<<Now you may think that anyone born North of Maryland is a Yankee but to

the rest of the world, who do not identify themselves in such uniquely

American terms, we are not Yankees. In fact, if you want to put it to an

international vote, all ya'll is Yankees no matter what side of the nonline

you were born on. So there! Scotti is more of a Yankee than I'll ever be,

hah! How do you like them apples Mr. Ice Skating God? Feeling a little BLUE

right now?>>

Sorry to burst your bubble, Babe. But for the most part "Yankee" amde

"Rebel" refer to the US only. It isn't taking any other countries / nations

into consideration.

Sunshine

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:43:07 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Enyo" <enyo@paganportals.com>

> I don't recall you ever using a sig this long on Circle... And Gwen and I

> aren't moderators on WH, so it's not really our place to address it there,

> either.

So long as the digest on WH isn't functional, I don't worry about the length

of peoples sigfiles [or their apparent inability to edit their posts]. I

prefer that sigfiles be no more than 6 to 8 lines, max, but then you have

Lady Morgan's which is either 19 or 20 lines long. My preference on

advertisements is that they are discrete [no more than a line or two

attached to the sigfile].

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:49:33 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

I know. *evil cackle*

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Queens Plaza

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 10:02 PM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

--- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com> wrote:

<<The Church of Kern site, which links to the Holy

Icon, is now a part of my site. The direct link is>>

The only scary part is that trads have popped up

behind things like this.....

~Toria~

_______________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:47:01 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Anita" <monarch108@angelfire.com>

Anita quoted:

> >>>I do remember someone mentioning something to the effect that you

either never give up or don't know when to quit.

Just so you know, hon, the bit you quoted above was me speaking to Betsy,

not Betsy speaking to someone else.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:53:48 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

woowoo... and so My church grows...

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Kris

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 3:12 AM

Subject: Re: Re: [WitchWars] Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

OK, Oh, Great Kern...you've made a believer out

of me.

I think my good Southern Kernalite name would be

"Dern." At least, that's what people say when

they see me coming. ;-)

http://krisjones.tripod.com

ICQ: 9074244 AOL IM: kriscerz

"Seize the moment. Remember all the

women who waved off the dessert cart on

the Titanic." --Erma Bombeck

http://www.care2.com - Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife!

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

WitchWars-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:57:26 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Aw baby, not even from the Tool of Satan?

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Julia Walkingfish

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:14 AM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> WOO HOO!

> Does that mean we are going to start calling it a

> "Kernanalia"!? ;-)

Kern-analia? You can if you like, I don't accept back door deliveries.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:55:43 -0600

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

At 02:32 AM 02/03/2002 -0800, Anita took time to post:

>OIC, OTOH, if you don't mind my asking this question, why has this not

>been brought up anywhere else but this list? If it was a problem I would

>think that it would have been addressed already in the other lists.

I've been particularly busy and distracted. Here is a piece I wrote about

sig files for the PWA back in 1999, you will probably only be interested in

the first half since the second half is PWA specific.

Sig Files And How Best To Use Them By Gwendalyn Wolfrose

http://thepwa.net/rants.php?id=sigfile-gwen.php

To go with that another person who runs a few lists wrote this one as well.

Why Sig Files Are A Bad Idea For Mailing Lists By John Norris

http://thepwa.net/rants.php?id=sigfile-john.php

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 402

Date: 2/3/2002

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

WitchWars-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

2. Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

3. Re: Monarch's too long sig file was Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

4. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

5. Re: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

6. Re: Monarch's too long sig file was Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

7. Re: Monarch's too long sig file was Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

8. Re: Monarch's too long sig file was Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

9. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

10. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

11. Re: Monarch's too long sig file was Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

12. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:06:59 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Betsy wrote:

"Wow stinkyfish, 12 one sentence posts in one digest, and you still didn't

manage to puke out anything of substance"

She's discipling for My church! That's of substance.

Well, to Me. >=}

".....except to tell everyone what a fat ass you have. In fact, you seem to

be rather hung up on the "ass" thing? Not exactly the queen of come backs

are you???? ROFL"

It takes one to know one. On all counts here.

"Personally, I like my women with a bit of heft to them, but I also like

them to have a brain, so you have nothing to worry about. While you have

proven to be one of the more comical on-line ego tripping posers I have

encountered, it is getting rather monotonous having to explain the insults

to you LOL"

I don't know, kids, but I think Betsy is in denial. She's got a hard lil

clit just throbbing for My Thwalk, and she's pissed that Thwalk won't tickle

it. Cmon, dear Mod, admit it, it's ture love (or at least wanton lust).

-- Kern

_________________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:18:10 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Good for the goose...

(This is based on Parmenidus' comments, but I'm cross-posting, so I took

those out.)

Ok, here's a serious comment... I hear this a lot in the Wiccan circles:

"We're not supposed to proselytize, we're not supposed to hold to specific

dogma, that's what Christianity is all about, and if I wanted that, I

wouldn't have left the church."

Now, *I* left Christianity for a very good reason: I didn't believe in the

theology. I thought it was bunk. The longer I'm away, the more bunkish it

becomes: Jesus, in my view, was either a schizophrenic egomaniac or a

manifestation of a malevolent Trickster Deity (or both). I didn't leave

because people proselytized. Leaving a church because you don't like its

followers, well, that's just asking for trouble on the Next Plane, because

you're not leaving because God pissed you off, you're leaving because you

didn't like the neighbors.

*I* left because God pissed me off. I see nothing wrong with certain

behaviors, like holding to a consistent philosophical stance which happens

to include telling other people, in no uncertain terms, what that stance is.

If that's proselytizing, so be it. Big hairy deal. "We're not Christian"

does *NOT* mean, "Christianity is full of shit and so anything they do, we

can't do." Great way to run your spirituality. *golf clap golf clap golf

clap*

-- Brighn/Kern [depending on the list you're reading ;} ]

_________________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:25:08 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Monarch's too long sig file was Re: Re: Good for the goose...

(This isn't directed just at you, sis, you're just the one I happened to hit reply on...)

You know, it's amazing to me how much bandwith people are willing to use up telling someone that they're using up too much bandwidth. ;} I think that whoever-it-is has gotten the point that people think her sig is full of shit.

-- Kern

----- Original Message -----

From: Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 11:04 AM

Subject: Monarch's too long sig file was Re: [WitchWars] Re: Good for the goose...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:23:33 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

>> "We??" Are you starting to internalize my blanket statements now too

Raven?? Actually, I was mimicking the behavior of several people who joined

this list specifically to defend Julia, after Julia went whining off list to

them. Are you one of those people now?? I certainly did not include you in

that category, but it appears you are choosing to put yourself in it?<<

It's really hard to tell who the heck you're talking about at times [that

is, when it's not Julia] and you DID name me in that same message and seemed

to toss me in the same pot.

Sometimes I think you mistake the idea of others defending a

concept/position they support with leaping to the defense of a person. Most

of the people here who know Julia have said, quite a few times, that the

Fish is quite capable of defending herself.

>> As I said, I treat people the way they treat me and others. Julia and a

couple of her mouthpieces are getting what they give...and it appears they

don't like it :-0 <<

<shrug> You don't seem to like it done to you. Your supporters don't seem

to like it done to you either. When's it gonna stop? Or do you really

enjoy making yourself look like an ass in public?

>> If you are asking will I ever stop treating Julia with the same

disrespect she has continually shown me and others on this list since the

moment she arrived, not likely.<<

You're so busy playing the game, I doubt that you'll notice when some of the

crappola has disappeared.

>> You can assume anything you like. I think we have already established

that I really don't give a rat's patoot what you think of me??<<

Why should you? You don't know me. We don't, obviously, travel in the same

circles. I don't know you from jack-shit, though I think I've seen your

sigfile somewhere. Maybe the old SS list? <shrug> I can't remember if you

ever said anything there that was noteworthy. I haven't seen you post

anything here that justifies your being considered a leader in your

community, except that one glowing report someone posted about you. I'm

trying to see where the balance between the behavior I see here and that one

glowing report actually lies. I'm curious, but don't really care a whole

heck of a lot.

>> As with everything else...it all depends on perspective :-)<<

Yeah, that's true. A community, however, is often judged by its leadership.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:24:46 -0600

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

Subject: Re: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

At 08:35 AM 02/03/2002 -0500, Enyo took time to post:

>At 01:06 AM 2/3/02, you wrote:

> >Actually, what's in my sig line is contact info. I can be contacted at

> >any of those places.

>There is still that four line thing, hun. It *can* be shortened... Allow

>me to demonstrate.

> >They are websites, not advertisements.

>It's still longer than netiquette standards.

> >Besides the fact that I've seen longer ones on this list.

><shrugs> So, maybe they'll get a clue after seeing this.

>See Isis' sig file shrink.

> >Isis Wyndsong Peace

> >ICQ #36771883 | AIM: miellemam | Yahoo ID: panda97045

> >

> >I have a list also here at this

> >site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

> >

> >I have a community on msn communities

> >also: http://communities.msn.com/SupportforFamiliesSpousesetcofprisoners

> >

> >I moderate this one with AoB: AngelicMagick-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

> >

> >Shop at my online mall! Have

> >fun! http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

>It's still too long, though... If you *must* have one of those links

>listed, personally, I'd list the mall, and have them all crosslinked. If

>they aren't pagan related, like your MSN community, I'd dump it from the

>pagan mailing list sig file altogether. Also, AngelicMagick doesn't show

>up as a link in some mail files. The only way to do so is to use HTML

>code, which is either a no-no or is stripped out on email lists.

Not entirely true luv.

Doing this trick will make is clickable for some mail programs and it is

plain text.

mailto:AngelicMagick-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I would agree however that they should be given the URL rather than the

subscribe info.

So, her sig file could be cut down like so:

Isis Windsong Peace

ICQ #36771883 | AIM: miellemam | Yahoo ID: panda97045

Pearl of wisodom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlofwisdom/

AngelicMagick: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AngelicMagick/

My Online Mall: http://www.mycreation.net/the_shoppers_mall

This sig is 5 lines and cutting out the "Shop at my" part of the mall line

takes away the spammish look and feel of the sig. It should also be noted

that line space counts as a line. My sig below is 5 lines.

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 403

Date: 12/30/1899

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

2. proselytizing (was: goose)

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

3. Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

4. Re: Digest Number 395

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

5. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

6. Re: Yankees....

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

7. Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

8. Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

9. Re: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

10. Re: Digest Number 400

From: TxSueMom@aol.com

11. Re: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

12. Re: Re:Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: Elizabeth <Elizabeth9566728@yahoo.com>

13. Re: Digest Number 400

From: TxSueMom@aol.com

14. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

15. Re: Digest Number 400

From: "Arwen Nightstar/Stephanie Lynch" <arwennightstar@attbi.com>

16. Betsy and Da Fish

From: Elizabeth <Elizabeth9566728@yahoo.com>

17. Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

18. Dogma . . .was Good for Goose

From: Parmenidus@aol.com

19. Re: Good for the goose...

From: SacredDragonsfl@aol.com

20. Re: Good for the goose...

From: SacredDragonsfl@aol.com

21. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: SacredDragonsfl@aol.com

22. Re:Re: Re:Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

23. Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

24. Grits in Denver

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

25. Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:22:00 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Julia,

Sweetheart, who is being chilish and rude here? Maybe it is time for you to

let go of the Betsy bone and grow up! Your true self is showing and if you

must be disrespectful and spew crap like this to make yourself feel better,

then you have a problem.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Doesn't matter. She's suffering from Gestational Tourrette's Syndrome and

just erupts with crude comments without cause or warning. Veracity is not

a requirement. It's a sickness. She can't help herself.

Vern >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:23:21 -0800 (PST)

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

Subject: proselytizing (was: goose)

On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Brighn (Paul Kershaw) wrote:

> (This is based on Parmenidus' comments, but I'm cross-posting, so I took

> those out.)

> Ok, here's a serious comment... I hear this a lot in the Wiccan circles:

> "We're not supposed to proselytize, we're not supposed to hold to specific

> dogma, that's what Christianity is all about, and if I wanted that, I

> wouldn't have left the church."

I hear it a lot too. I think of proselytizing & holding to dogma as two

separate issues; I get tired of people who seem to think they're somehow

tied together. (Hassidic Jews hold to dogma. They do not proselytize.)

> Now, *I* left Christianity for a very good reason: I didn't believe in the

> theology. I thought it was bunk. The longer I'm away, the more bunkish it

Yup. And I'm in the religion I have now (which is either Wicca or a

Wiccanesque faith; not sure which side of the very blurry line I fall on),

because I agree with the theology & applications thereof.

I have no problem with telling others about my religion. I have no

problem with steering people towards it, if they show an interest & it

seems to match their beliefs.

I think much of the big hoo-haw over proselytizing comes from the notion

that this (these) religion(s) are *not* for everyone; not even for

"everyone who's not an Xian fundie." They take work, harsh

self-evaluation, harsh evaluations from others, constant striving towards

certain goals (describing these can be difficult; "enlighenment" and

"wisdom" sound hokey), and study, and practice, etc.

No point in shouting on the street corners, "BECOME WICCAN & YOUR LIFE

WILL ROCK!!" and then get stuck telling 80% of the people who show up to

your Learning Circle that they don't have what it takes, please go back to

Xianity or become a Buddhist, okay?

(I suppose this is kinda what happened: Swarms of newbies discovered

Craft, decided it was cool, got told by various witches--both BTW and

other cultural backgrounds--that they either needed to go mature a bit

before starting on this, or that the Coven is full right now, no new

students this years, sorry... and they found Cunningham & Ravenwolf, and

decided they *were so* gonna be witches, and nobody could tell them they

weren't. After all, there are no rules in this religion,

right? "Witch" means whatever I want it to...)

--Erica

*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*'`'*.,.*

elfwreck@idiom.com Erica Frank & Rob Carter II

"The Major is a good man, means well and works hard.

Unfortunately, he would not be able to get a clue if he went out into a

field full of horny clues during mating season, smeared his naked body

with clue musk and danced the ritual clue mating dance."

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:25:20 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Just another grown up comment from Julia...Give us a break! With as many real

life issues that we as a community face to spend so much time with dribble

like this is counter productive. Get over it all ready!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Judging from the post with the incoherent string of insults, my guess would

be yes and also foot stomping and farting. But we really need a Betsy-cam

to know for sure.

Vern >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:26:59 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 395

SO STOP!...Please it is past being old and redundant!

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< That's funny. Reposting the same comment again and again is just as much

of a waste of bandwidth.

Julia >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:28:27 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Another statement of maturity from Julia....GEESH!

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< You've established that you ARE a rat's patoot, or as grown ups call it a

RAT'S ASS.

Julia >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:31:16 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Yankees....

So Julia, Betsy was correct your a yankee!

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< I was BORN in Maryland. Not that it matters, but there ya' go.

Julia >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:35:03 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Julia, If ALL you can do is be disrespectful, mean, and annoying...try

keeping your fingers still. The rest of us are tired of the smear campain and

would like to move past your chilish dribble.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

Who hates getting up this morning just to read mean and hateful crap from one

member of community to another. This is sooo sad!

<< Well, she does spend most of her time talking through her ass, pulling

ideas out of her ass, in in general being ......an ASS.

Vern >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:40:18 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Jullia,

All I can say is bull shit! It sure does not look that way from here I was

greeted this morning with a flurry of slams from you pointed in Betsy's

direction. Can you say obsession? From here it looks like your pretty

obsessed with "targeting" Betsy!

Really tired of the dribble :(

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Actually Betsy has become so comical that I'm just enjoying her for

entertainment, since that's all she has to offer. Other than that I'm

not 'targeting' anyone. >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:43:19 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

Now I like this sig file! LOL

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< Enyo (whose own sig file is one too long, but neat and compact nonetheless)

"To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Hit Save Before Crashing..."

--Gwenius Maximus >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:41:43 EST

From: TxSueMom@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 400

In a message dated 02/03/2002 7:26:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,

WitchWars@yahoogroups.com writes:

<< Isis Wyndsong Peace

ICQ #36771883

AIM Screen Name: miellemam

Yahoo ID: panda97045 >>

This is your sig line....and just fine....

The entire page that follows this is nothing but self-aggrandizing crap<with

the exclusion of the Lycos ad which just shows you have yet to master

editting> that is inappropriate for a list. Incleude all of that drek on

your private offlist eamials...up to you...but here it is just a waste ...

irritating at the least...and a clear indicator of which way your eyes are

focused <Inward on "Me,me,me,me, me....">.

This makes 3 times you have been asked to curtail your attached advertising

taglines onlist. And Rob has also caught flak for his sig line...but doesn't

always use the one that quotes an entire monologue from a movie. THey often

use a much more reasonable length of sig line.

~End of rant~

Mom

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 11:45:04 -0600

From: Gwen Wolfrose <wolfrose@caprok.net>

Subject: Re: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

At 12:43 PM 02/03/2002 -0500, dragonsfl@aol.com took time to post:

>Now I like this sig file! LOL

> "To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Hit Save Before Crashing..."

> --Gwenius Maximus >>

Thank you, thank you very much. ;)

Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 404

Date: 2/3/2002

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

WitchWars-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

2. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

3. Re:Dirt

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

4. Re: Grits in Denver

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

5. Re: Yankees....

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

6. Re: Digest Number 395

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

7. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

8. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

9. Re: Footers (was: Digest Number 400)

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

10. Re: Digest Number 403

From: TxSueMom@aol.com

11. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

12. Re: Re: Grits in Denver

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

13. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

14. Re: Good for the goose...

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

15. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

16. Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

17. Answers to SerpentStone Questions 1

From: "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com>

18. Answers to SerrpentStone Questions 2

From: "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com>

19. Answers to SerpentStone Questions 3

From: "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com>

20. Answers to SerpentStone Questions 4

From: "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com>

21. Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

22. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

23. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

24. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

25. Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:42:20 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 12:01 PM 2/3/02, Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net> wrote:

><shrug> You don't seem to like it done to you. Your supporters don't seem

>to like it done to you either.

Of course no one likes it done to them, or to someone they like. On this list respect given garners respect in return. Likewise, insults and rudeness get a person insulted in return.

>When's it gonna stop?

When the Stinkyfish stops giving me nasty emails to reply to. If you will look through the archives, you will see that I only respond to the Stinkyfish's posts. I'm even considerate of bandwidth and respond to a dozen of her lamer posts with one truly funny one LOL

>Or do you really

>enjoy making yourself look like an ass in public?

Funny, but from my perspective, you are one of the folks who have made yourself look like an ass. You berate me for the same behavior you condone in the Stinkyfish, and then expect folks to accept that you are not defending a friend. Interesting how that perspective thing works :-)

>You're so busy playing the game, I doubt that you'll notice when some of the

>crappola has disappeared.

When the "crappola' disappears I won't have it to respond to now will I?? It wasn't a problem on this list before the Stinkyfish and her school of guppies arrived. Now, as a group, we get to experiment with different ways of dealing with attention starved sophists. Fine by me. Like I said before, I am more then willing to play by someone else's rules. As long as they are here being nasty and rude to people, they will get nasty and rude in return....now how hard is that to understand???

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:33:30 -0500

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

Thank you, Oh, Great Kern and Sistah Thwalk. I

relish the association with such hilarious

creators of verbal corn. Big hug to my brother

Kernal Hamilton!

Your ever loyal subject,

Dern

http://krisjones.tripod.com

ICQ: 9074244 AOL IM: kriscerz

"Seize the moment. Remember all the

women who waved off the dessert cart on

the Titanic." --Erma Bombeck

http://www.care2.com - Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife!

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:33:21 -0000

From: "lorothiel" <estara2@earthlink.net>

Subject: Re:Dirt

--- In WitchWars@y..., Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@y...> wrote:

> huh. I wonder what the Old Lady had to say about some

> drunken wench trying to take on Her Mantle and

> impersonate Her? Maybe could be why her life is a

> great big whirling shit-storm!? So to speak.

I don't think She was amused, no. ^_~ She's also done some things to

get her on the outs with the Morrigan, so it's Happyland 'round the

Kisma domicile.

> Of course, to link this all back to an earlier

> thread, maybe this is just a great example of how a

> Pagan Community, when left to it's own devices, will

> police itself, and cleanse itself of un-ethical and

> unwanted presences?

I know that the Fellowship of Isis more or less depends on the

principle that "God(dess) will sort it out." Lady Olivia refers to

this as "the winnowing wings of Isis." The assumption is that She

will thin out those who are not up to Her standards Herself. The FOI

rarely stirs itself to do the job - of course, AFAIK it's seldom

needed to.

Which is nice as far as it goes, although it doesn't remove my

instinct to tie up my own camel (if I may mix some metaphors). OTOH,

there's always the problem of knowing when the other guy really is a

piece of living excrement, and when he's just the victim of bad press

coming from someone who's feeling pissy. By the time you get a good

preponderance of evidence built up, the perp is so far over the top

that it hardly seems important or interesting to warn anyone about him

(or her) anyway. All you can do then is protect the next generation

by putting up Web sites or whatever that say, "Hey, remember that

court case X had two years ago? You don't? Well, sit down and let me

tell you the story...."

Love, Estara Korai

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:04:31 -0000

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Grits in Denver

Ahh, time for a funny true story.

I knew this guy from Mass. Joe had never ever seen or heard of grits.

Well when his family moved to Orlando I was a senior in high school.

Anyway, he and I and a couple of others went out cruising one night

and we got hungry and the Waffle House seemed like a great idea. Like

I said we were HUNGRY! So anyway we all order what we wanted and the

waitress brings Joe's order out with a bowl of grits. He kinda spoons

through it, then adds sugar and milk. Now we're all sitting there

watching him, cause ain't NONE of us ever seen nobody fixin' their

grits with milk. So Joe takes a bite and makes the awfulless face, he

calls the waitress over and quote:

"Mame, this cream of wheat is bad."

We all fell out of the booth, rolling on the floor. Now, personally,

I can't stand grits or homminy for that matter. But to each his/her

own.

Grem

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:08:58 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

Cerridwyn decreed:

>So Julia, Betsy was correct your a yankee!

Actually, with a birthplace of Maryland, that makes her a

non-Yank. :-) At least, as my kinfolk taught it, it's the birthplace that

makes the Yank, not the present locale.

Enyo

"To me, what makes a woman sexy is the willingness to have sex with me.

That is *so* sexy."

--Jim Rosenberg

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:07:38 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 395

Cerridwyn wrote:

>SO STOP!...Please it is past being old and redundant!

Cerridwyn, I get the feeling that you're not new to the mailing list

front. So, with that knowledge in hand, I would think that you'd realize

that the quickest way for a thread to die is to stop feeding it.

And yet, you continue to do so... Fascinating.

Enyo

"Rebellion without truth is like spring in a bleak, arid desert."

--Kahlil Gibran

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:06:15 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Cerridwyn wrote:

>Julia,

> Sweetheart, who is being chilish and rude here?

Both of them, I think.

>Maybe it is time for you to

>let go of the Betsy bone and grow up!

And time for Betsy to let go of the Fish bone, by that token.

>Your true self is showing

Actually, I'm pretty good friends with her true self.

>and if you

>must be disrespectful and spew crap like this to make yourself feel better,

>then you have a problem.

Actually, since you felt the need to post this, perhaps you're the one with

the problem?

Look, Fish, Cerridwyn's giving you power. :-)

Enyo

"Immature love says: 'I love you because I need you.' Mature love says: 'I

need you because I love you.'"

--Erich Fromm

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:14:08 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Betsy pointed out:

>Not very much considering I have the doll on my shelf LOL....Of course I

>guess if someone lacks the ability to be original, they have to fall back

>on the childhood stuff :-0

<smiles> Sometimes, pushing a childhood-related button gets the most

results. I do things for a reason. :-)

Enyo

"Relationships should come with those little black boxes that airplanes

have. That way, when they crash and burn, we'd actually get some answers."

--Corrina Bunch

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:11:57 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Footers (was: Digest Number 400)

Mom wrote:

>Thank you for at least deleting a portion of the sigs to shorten them...now

>if you will kindly delete the gratuitous Lycos add I will have no problem

>with yous sigline size at all. Lycos must pay you a nice royalty to earn a

>free 3line adv from you. Me, I'd charge commercial companies if they want me

>to be an internet billboard for them.

If she uses a free lycos mail (which I believe she does), there's nothing

she can do about it... Just like Hotmail, Yahoo, Excite, and various other

free-mail attach a footer. <shrugs> That's one of the evils of free

web-based email.

It's in the same category as an Angelfire or Geocities pop up that comes

up when you go to the site.

Enyo

"People who go around getting their panties in a knot when they allow

others to threaten their beliefs usually gain nothing but a sore ass..."

--Gwenius Maximus, 01/26/02

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:20:10 EST

From: TxSueMom@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 403

In a message dated 02/03/2002 3:54:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,

WitchWars@yahoogroups.com writes:

<< (whose kindest, most compassionate friends mailed

her Garlic Pepper and the Self-rising corn meal

that didn't have the consistency of grit paper

that Arwen probably uses to line her bird cages) >>

I periodically have to place an order from my kids in TX for some of my more

"exotic" spices that are not sold here in NYC. Things like fajita marinade,

Worcestershire Powder, Liquid smoke mesquite marinade, File powder and etc...

One of my daughters also green-ships me culinary herbs freshly harvested from

her herb patch by collecting the entire plant and shipping it bare root

wrapped for me. That way I can dry and fresh season my foods even though I

no longer have space to grow my own herbs.

Mom

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:22:12 -0000

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> "Relationships should come with those little black boxes that

airplanes

> have. That way, when they crash and burn, we'd actually get some

answers."

> --Corrina Bunch

"If the "black box" flight recorder is never damaged during a plane

crash,why isn't the whole damn airplane made out of that stuff?"

George Carlin

Grem

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:29:58 -0500

From: "Kris" <krisjones@wildmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Grits in Denver

Great grit story, Grem! :-D

On a similar note, while I was in North Dakota, I

spent a couple of weeks with my heartsister,

Sparky, and her family. She knew that I'm famous

in my circles of friends and acqqaintances for my

cornbread, so she asked me to whip up a batch of

Kris' famous cornbread.

I'm a purist. I don't use mix, sugar doesn't go

near my cornbread, and I have to have the

"sizzle" just right (preheating the oil so

there's a thick, crunchy crust.)

We sat down to a big pot of ham and

beans...perfect for a side of cornbread, right?

Sparky's boys devoured their beans, nibbled a tip

off the cornbread, then I watched in horror as

they split open their wedges of cornbread, piled

a honking mound of butter in the middle, then

drenched both halves with *maple syrup.* Most

people who know me have never seen me utterly

speechless, but Sparky can attest to one such

event. :::::shudder::::::

http://krisjones.tripod.com

ICQ: 9074244 AOL IM: kriscerz

"Seize the moment. Remember all the

women who waved off the dessert cart on

the Titanic." --Erma Bombeck

http://www.care2.com - Get your Free e-mail account that helps save Wildlife!

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:09:15 -0500

From: "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Nah, I got a pretty big waistline, too...

-- Kern

Well, Kern looks like the ONLY thing that is large about you is your belief

in your self.

Gwydion

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Message: 14

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 18:03:04 -0500

From: Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Cerridwyn snivelled:

> Really tired of the dribble :(

And yet you continue to add to it, replying to (almost?) every message.

Seems somewhat hypocritical to me...

Laneth <laneth@cfrq.net>

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Message: 15

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 15:30:19 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: <dragonsfl@aol.com>

> Has it? I had hopes that it was slowing until I woke up this morning and

> was met by the childish words of wisdom from Julia. Go back and look,

Julia

> has reopened the floodgates of childish dribble. <shaking head is

disbelief>

<grin> Some of the crappola seems to have fallen by the wayside. As for

the two of them... <shrug> They go back and forth. One is just as bad as

the other. Betsy slams Julia; Julia slams Betsy; Betsy slams Julia;

Julia slams Betsy; Betsy slams Julia in a message to someone else... It's

only going to stop when one of them decides to ignore the other and sticks

to it.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

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Message: 16

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 15:33:25 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

----- Original Message -----

From: <dragonsfl@aol.com>

> Sad but too true! My goodness we do have some issues to work through if

> are ever going to be a real community.

Cerridwyn? What, to you, constitutes a "real community"?

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

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Message: 17

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:52:58 -0000

From: "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com>

Subject: Answers to SerpentStone Questions 1

Hello Everyone--

This is Spider sending under Jade's account-- she has just gone into

labor as we were finishing our answers to these questions. That,

couple with Rhiannon's move into a new house over the past week and

the recent serious illness of my husband plus computer crashes and

the exigencies of life have unavoidably delayed our responses. Thanks

for your patience.

We are posting the answers to questions posed us by this list in four

parts, since they are lengthy. If you have any follow-up questions on

these subjects in the next week, please send them with a header that

has the word "SerpentStone" and we will get to them as quickly as we

can.

Please understand the circumstances, and understand that while Jade

wrote these answers, we all contributed to them and we will all

contribute to follow-up questions, so it may take us a while, but we

will attempt to post answers in a batch, if at all possible.

Thanks for your patience,

The SerpentStone Triad

Jade

Rhiannon

Spider

General Questions

1.) Was the "Eldered dog" ever used to achieve a quorum?

The so-called "Eldered dog" was a jest at a party. You would have had

to know Serphant to appreciate this, though. He was the most

wonderfully irreverent man I ever met. He was forever poking fun at

sacred cows, especially his own. So the answer is: No, the dog never

voted and certainly wasn't ever used to achieve a quorum.

2.) Could you describe the governing structure of

SerpentStone?

Essentially you are talking about two separate structures, the Family

of SerpentStone and SerpentStone Inc., so I will deal with it as such.

The family of SerpentStone is a loose network clustered around a

central structure. Essentially, it is a constantly changing web with

the Triad being the closest thing to a center. The web changes

according to who is capable, willing and active at that time. The

Triad acts as an anchor and communications hub. This is a network

that by its own nature prevents anyone, including the Triad, from

grasping control; those who attempt it find that the strands of the

web simply break and melt away from them.

In the Family of SerpentStone, the individual member covens/groups

have their own structures of leadership and we don't interfere with

them. Next in line are the Elders, who are usually leaders of groups.

We have at least two Elder's meetings a year, more if the need

arises. At these meetings anyone who is a SerpentStone Elder, a 3rd

degree or the leader of a group (regardless of training or degree) is

invited to attend. The purpose of these meetings is to help anyone

who might need it, and so that they can take advantage of the

experience of others who have faced similar situations. They can take

advantage of the experience of the others. We all run across

situations where we need help, advice and support occasionally. It is

hoped that at these meetings anyone who is having a problem, needs

help with an issue, or has an unsettled grievance will come forward

to discuss it or get help with it. Also at these meeting the Elders

discuss and vote on anything that needs it. Anyone can bring up

subjects for discussion. A person who isn't an Elder or a leader and

wishes an issue to be discussed need only approach an Elder to be

invited to present it. All the major issues are decided by the vote

of the Elders. The majority rules. We do not compel Elders to vote

and they can choose not to. If they can't attend a meeting, they may

call or e-mail in a vote or send a proxy with someone.

Now, as to Serpentstone Inc.: At the request of the Elders who voted

it into existence at the Elder's meeting in November of 2000, it is a

separate entity. It was done this way in order to protect the

privacy, personal information, rights and financial status of the

Elders and the members of Serpentstone the family. Serpentstone Inc.

is the corporation that runs gatherings. The Triad makes up the three

officers. We are responsible for the gatherings we put on. We

incorporated in early 2001.

3.) Is there a formal difference between "active"

and "inactive" membership in Serpent Stone, including for elders?

No, there is no difference. An Elder, or any member for that matter,

chooses how active or inactive to be within SerpentStone the family

according to each individual's abilities and willingness to volunteer.

4.) Is the general membership directly involved in any

decision making? (Do they vote?) Or do Elders & the Triad make all

decisions? (presumably after taking input from the community, of

course)

As I stated above, there is provision for anyone to be heard at an

Elders meeting, and anyone can approach any Elder at any time. The

Elder (or Triad member) will bring it to the attention of the rest of

the Elders or the person will be invited to speak personally. The

voting is done by the Elders only. The truth is that we really don't

often have issues that require votes. Issues tend to be taken care of

by whichever Elder is on the spot and willing to do so at the time.

Sometimes they ask the Triad for help and advice and sometimes they

don't. I know personally that before voting on an issue, I tend to

talk to every member I run across for opinion on the matters. The

vote is carried by those who have made the effort to vote. If the

Elders at the meeting think it's important enough, then a snail mail

vote is sent out to all the Elders and it's up the each individual

Elder whether they return it or not.

With regards to decisions at gatherings: The volunteer gathering

coordinators make the decisions under the guidance of the Triad (we

are responsible, after all). There are certain guidelines that are

put forth in our handbook on the subject.

5.) What powers and responsibilities are assigned to whom?

In SerpentStone Inc., responsibility is assigned to the Triad. We

ensure the gatherings get put on when, where and how they should.

There are guidelines spelled out for them and we work closely with

the people who volunteer to coordinate them. Whenever there isn't a

volunteer, then we ourselves put the gathering on or we cancel it. We

are ultimately responsible for gatherings coming off smoothly.

Within SerpentStone the Family, each group is responsible for itself.

Otherwise, responsibilities tend to go to whoever is capable and

willing to volunteer for them.

5.) Are there checks and balances built into the

structure?

At the Elder's meetings, the Triad members vote as individual Elders.

It was intended that the Triad only work as a check and balance upon

the voting body of Elders, deal with small day-to-day issues. If the

Triad felt like the vote of the Elders went against the "Dream of

SerpentStone," then we have veto rights. However we can be overridden

by a 2/3 majority of all the Elders. This structure was intended to

keep the dream alive, the family healthy and the power decentralized.

People tend to think the Triad has far more power then we actually

do.

6.) Do you have a grievance process? Would you describe

that process?

In SerpentStone the Family, the individual member groups have their

own means of dealing with grievances and we do not interfere in them,

since each coven or group is autonomous. If the situation is extreme,

criminal or abusive, then the members have several choices. They can

vote with their feet and leave. They can seek legal recourse, or they

can approach an Elder or SerpentStone Priest/ess they trust for help.

In instances where a formal request is made to the Triad, we talk to

the people involved, investigate the situation from all sides,

evaluate the proof or lack thereof, and we try to mediate a solution

acceptable to both sides. But here it must be stated that there must

be a formal request for an investigation. Checking out a story or a

rumor and gathering information is not an investigation. If, after a

formal investigation, an abuse of power is substantiated and the

person or persons will not change their behavior, they are asked not

to use the SerpentStone name and to disassociate themselves from us.

If they refuse, as a last resort a council may be called (the person

who has been asked to leave also has the right to call for a

council). The Elders asked to sit on the council are agreed upon by

both parties to the issue. We try to help everyone through counseling

and mediation first before going to council. I have never seen a

council that didn't cause great harm to all concerned. In the history

of SerpentStone, some 10 years, there have only been two councils,

and they were both requested by the members, not the Elders.

On the whole we much prefer to work with people to encourage change,

growth and healing instead of calling councils.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:56:43 -0000

From: "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com>

Subject: Answers to SerrpentStone Questions 2

General information Part 2

8.) By what means are the Triad held accountable to those they serve?

We can be outvoted. The Triad has only separate votes as Elders in

most issues, and as I mentioned above, we can be outvoted by a 2/3

majority of all Elders and our veto as the Triad can be overturned by

a 2/3 majority of all Elders. An individual Triad member can also be

removed from office by a � majority vote of all the Elders, with no

abstentions.

9.) To what degree are they subject to the scrutiny of the community?

The Triad, in a sense, "lives in a fishbowl." Our lives are

constantly the subject of public scrutiny. Accuracy of the vision of

those doing the scrutinizing is another matter. Evaluation and

debate, as well as rumor and gossip, are a constant. The Triad

strives to be extremely clear in its statements and decisions, and

has striven to explain them to those who have misunderstood or asked

for clarification.

We are, in fact, quite responsive to questions presented to us. When

SerpentStone as a family had these same accusations leveled at us

before, the Serpentstone Information List was created in April of

2000 to deal with them. Some of the Elders at the time were unhappy

with some things and rather than use the grievance process, they

issued even more complaints in this very public forum and other

public forums. We spent 11 months and over 12,000 e-mails not to

mention phone calls in dealing with the complaints. We hid nothing.

Anyone who wanted to, member of SerpentStone or not, could join the

list. We did very little moderating. We answered everything to the

best of our abilities, even the complaints against the Triad that

occurred before the Triad even existed. The answers weren't always

what our accusers wanted to hear, but we honestly answered to the

best of our abilities. Those Elders who were not satisfied voted with

their feet, as is their right. We miss them and wish that things

could have worked out in a less painful manner. It was very painful

for us also. Most of the questions that are being asked here are not

new questions. They were addressed on the old list.

10.) How do you receive and respond to community concerns and

feedback?

For SerpentStone family matters, see the above answers. For the

larger community as well as for family, we created the SerpentStone

list and answered questions for nearly a year. We have come on this

list to answer questions. We answer phones and e-mails also and the

Triad is accessible by e-mail at triad@serpentstone.org. We have and

will continue to do our best to deal with the concerns of the

community.

11.) What do the Triad consider themselves to be "leaders" of, and

whom do they think are their "followers"?

When we lead, it is by default. We do our work for the Lord and the

Lady and if we're doing it right, then others will join and stand

beside us, not behind us. We don't want followers. As Elders in

SerpentStone, we encourage people to become the best individuals they

can be within the family and within the larger community. They can't

be that as mere followers.

12.) Is a position on the Triad a lifelong appointment? If not, how

long is the term of service?

As it stands now, the term lasts until the Triad member resigns,

retires or is voted out. The term limits were never specified when

the Triad was created. This issue has been discussed at Elders

meetings at least twice since then. Elders have voiced concerns on

positions both for and against term limits. Originally when the

Triad was created, the Elders decided that since the Dream started

with Rhiannon and Lord Serphant named me/Jade as his heir, both in

ritual and out, that we should serve in the Triad and that the other

member would be voted in or out as we went along. It is our hope that

others will eventually take over much like when a High Priest/ess of

a coven gets ready to retire then another will be ready, willing and

capable of taking over..

13.) Who will decide when a change of leadership is required and how

will that change be implemented?

The Elders, see above. As it stands now, changes in leadership are by

resignations with a replacement voted in by the Elders, or a � vote

of all Elders can remove a Triad member from office. In a case where

the Triad member is removed from office, candidates are nominated by

the Elders and voted on accordingly.

14.) Does Serpent Stone claim equal representation of all its groups,

and if some groups do not have an Elder on the council, how is this

achieved?

Groups are not represented by Elders on a "council." I wish to make

it clear that an Elder's council is an entirely different thing that

the Elders of SerpentStone. A council is called only in the direst of

circumstances as a last resort, see the grievance process in question

#7.

Elders make decisions for SerpentStone and all its members as a

whole. Every group and every individual has equal opportunity to

speak, they have but to use it. Anyone has the right to contact a

SerpentStone Elder or Triad member at any time they wish. See the

above answer to question #2.

15.) How are the various coven leaders and SerpentStone Elders

notified of Elders/Leaders open meetings/gatherings"?

Fliers are sent out both by snail mail and on the SS Elders List. If

an Elder doesn't receive them at least twice a year, then they need

to check that we have their information correctly. They can contact

me with correct information, go to the website and put in a new

listing or e-mail us at: triad@serpentstone.org. Any member of the

general public who wishes information about SerpentStone gatherings

may visit our website at serpentstone.org and sign up for our mailing

list. Contact information is updated after every gathering and

members can contact registration@serpentstone.org at any time with

updates.

16.) How do you deal with misconduct (violence, sexual predation,

felony convictions, abuse of students or others) among your governing

structure? Your general membership?

I covered most of this above. Abuse and misconduct at gatherings are

dealt with in the same manner no matter who is the perpetrator. The

family also tends to make their opinions known as a whole themselves.

They show it by their actions. When the community starts seeing

someone who is behaving in a manner they don't agree with, they start

withdrawing from them. The community makes up its mind as

individuals. We, the Elders or the Triad, do not tell them to

ostracize anyone. If someone feels excluded, then perhaps they should

go to the individual members who seem withdrawn and see if something

needs working out between them. If they need help, we can provide

mediation if we are asked to do so.

As far as behavior at gatherings goes, the rules are few and simple

they are also included in our fliers as well as posted liberally at

the gathering sites, and at registration. We try our best to provide

a family atmosphere where all can worship without fear. We do not

tolerate drug use, excessive or underage drinking or violent or

sexually inappropriate behavior. We ask everyone to respect the land,

the property owners' rights and to respect all paths. Those who

cannot abide by these rules are asked to leave. As far as we are

aware, we have not had felons in attendance at gatherings. Anything

even resembling sexual predation is dealt with harshly.

17.) Is there a way to remove an elder or Triad member? (For example,

for embezzlement of funds, or other serious crimes.) For that matter,

what's the process for removing an unwanted member?

I think most of this has been covered except embezzlement. We charge

such small entrance fees (starting at $10 for a weekend gathering,

including food) that there simply isn't any money to embezzle. We

aren't in this to make money or get larger, so we only charge enough

to break even. Sometimes we, mainly Rhiannon, but sometimes the

Triad, or an Elder who wishes to, will add personal funds for extras

or to keep things going if we're running short. (Some gatherings are

smaller than others and one gathering pays for the next one.)

We only had one problem even similar to this. At first, Rhiannon and

Serphant planned all the gatherings. They bankrolled the first ones.

After Serphant died, Rhiannon continued to plan them all, but it

eventually became too much for her and we started encouraging

volunteers to run gatherings. Once we had an Elder who sponsored a

gathering and apparently forgot to send the registration checks to

Rhiannon and they expired, so the banks refused to honor them. We

were very nearly bankrupt and Rhiannon had to bankroll the next

gathering or there wouldn't have been any more. The Elder who

coordinated the next one squeezed blood from turnips and pulled it

off beautifully and under budget. Since then, we have had no

problems. It was a learning experience for us all and part of the

reason that the Elders wished to incorporate. That way it would be

much easier to keep track of our finances. Though some Elders were

angry about the near financial disaster, the Triad counseled

forgiveness. The matter was finally dropped. As far as we are

concerned, it is over and should be forgotten. Coordinating a

gathering is an extremely hard and thankless job and everyone makes

mistakes. It doesn't mean they need to be punished or ostracized. The

person who coordinated that unfortunate gathering is still a valued

and much loved member and Elder.

18.) Do you now have or have you ever had or fostered "Red Priests"

(also known as guardians, enforcers, avenging angels or danites among

other groups)? Are any members of the Triad "Red Priests?"

19.) If so, in what capacity or situations do they serve?

Red Priests, if such a thing exists, are said to be traditionally of

the Knights Templar, a Christian sect. Others place the origins in

some branches of the Gardnerian tradition. None of the Triad is of

either of these traditions.

I am sorry this rumor started due to some errors of my own (Jade)

when I was fairly new to the Craft. I became convinced that I was

being trained as a Red Priest, when in fact I was being taught to be

a good priestess who walks a warrior path. Out of ego I talked of

this training to several people, and it has followed me ever since.

Since then, I have (hopefully) gained more wisdom and learned that

being a warrior does not necessarily mean being a Red Priest.

However, my statements did balloon later into rumors SerpentStone

employed squads of Red Priests, which is untrue.

SerpentStone has never used a Red Priest or militia or any other form

of "guardians" or enforcers, Triad member or any other, to admonish

or reprimand anyone. It is not our way. We try to work with people

through mediation with love. We work to heal breaches, not to dictate

behaviors. We believe that all paths are sacred and so we do not

dictate someone else's path or choices in this manner, or hold them

to one of our paths. It goes against the Dream of SerpentStone. We

are not enforcers. However we try to make sure there are no abuses of

power in SerpentStone's name and we deal with it as explained above.

20.) Are there currently any "nasty rumors" being spread by the Triad

about the group "Bridgebuilders"?

One part of the Dream of SerpentStone was to sponsor smaller, low-

cost gatherings so that all could gather to celebrate, especially

those who couldn't afford the larger ones in the outer community. It

was our hope that others would go out into the larger community and

do the same. The Rainbow Bridgebuilders was started by Lady DawnRaven

and Lord Solitaire, who are both current Elders of SerpentStone.

Though it was born of the same dream, through their own diversity,

they have obviously worked very hard and done well and made their own

dream. We applaud their efforts. Why would we criticize this group

when they are "doing their work" and "following the Dream," which are

two of the basic things we were founded on? We wish them only the

best. So let me be clear: No, there are no nasty rumors started, or

being circulated by any member of the Triad or any Elder that we know

of.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:57:50 -0000

From: "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com>

Subject: Answers to SerpentStone Questions 3

Questions regarding the corporate structure of Serpent Stone, Inc. a

non-profit entity:

1.) Who are the members of Serpent Stone, Inc.?

As I mentioned above, the Elders' decision was that SerpentStone,

Inc. would be a separate entity to run gatherings, and to be legally

responsible. This was to protect SerpentStone the family. So

essentially it is the Triad who are the members of SerpentStone,

Inc.

2.) How do they become members?

Quite simply, we were the ones already counseling the volunteers on

coordinating gatherings and we were willing to stick our necks out

and take responsibility to protect the whole.

3.) Are there different classes of membership as provided for in the

bylaws and what are they? 4.) Who has the right to amend the

bylaws/constitution of the group, if it has one? 5.) What are the

rights, requirements and authorities for the member class(es)? 6.)

Are groups (covens et al) a membership class? 7.) If so, how are they

admitted and what are their responsibilities as to the maintenance of

their membership? 8.) Who is subject to election criteria? 9.) For

what term are the leader(s) of SerpentStone elected? 10.) What is the

process for recurring elections? 11.) What are the general powers of

the Triad and the Elder Council?

I have combined the above questions because I feel they can best be

answered in this manner.

No, there are no classes of membership. SerpentStone, Inc. was

created to protect and to preserve confidentiality, however we do

seek a lot of input from the Elders and volunteers. Within

Serpentstone Inc. the Triad members are the sole membership, and our

duties are those of overseeing the SerpentStone gatherings. Their

rights and authorities are limited to these events and their

preparation.

I think this pretty much answers all the questions, that can be

answered at this time, in this category.

12.) What is the authority relationship between the Triad and the

Elder Council?

I think this has been fully explained, in the previous section

dealing with Serpentstone the Family, and I don't want to be too

repetitive. I wish to make clear that the Elders are not a council. A

council of Elders is a thing to be called only in the most dire

situations. There really is no authority relationship. The Triad is

really just three people who agreed to stand up and take the

responsibility and the fallout. The Elders lead by consensus.

13.) What is the authority relationship between class(es) of members

and these two groups?

I think this also has been explained and really pertains to the

Family, not the Corporation.

14.) Are financial reports presented to the member class(es)? If so,

when and to whom? Upon whose (person, group) authority are monetary

matters governed?

Basically we report financially to the IRS. And we will be making a

financial report to the Elders at the first Elders meeting of the

year. Because we only charge $10 per person per gathering, we really

barely break even. If we're lucky, we generally start the year with a

couple of hundred dollars in our treasury.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:59:47 -0000

From: "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com>

Subject: Answers to SerpentStone Questions 4

1.) Long, drawn out questions <BG>

"This most recent Samhain, at the SerpentStone gathering, I ("Lee")

was misfortunate enough to attend the most dangerous ritual I have

ever seen. The wind chill was in the 20's. It was clearly too cold to

have anyone

standing for a long period of time in those conditions. Ritual lasted

over two hours.

People regularly are extremely under prepared to come to gatherings,

much less rituals. Was it that important to have a ritual, which

capitalized on the grief of 9/11 to go as far as disregarding the

safety over a hundred people? The entire campsite was crazy with

people doing emergency medical evaluations.

There were many people who should have been taken to the hospital,

there were many more who should have given warm shelter immediately.

And I'm referring to not just people who attended the ritual, but

people who were in the ritual.

Who gave the go-ahead to put all of these people's health at risk?

The only reason I'm asking is that when I asked this question of

people who were in the ritual, they were callous, uncaring, and

flippant about the physical hardships that this had on people who

attended ***********************************************

Yes, it was a long ritual and yes, it was cold. For this we apologize.

I find that in answering this question that a few things need to be

explained. First of all, the inspiration for the ritual appeared to

all of us to be very specifically inspired by Deity, and we respected

that inspiration deeply.

Second, most of us in Serpentstone do not write scripts for rituals.

We feel it is better to let Deity or Spirit speak through us, rather

than trying to recite memorized words. We use outlines, but rarely

anything more detailed. This makes for some incredibly powerful

rituals but it also makes it impossible to tell how long they will

last.

The Samhain ritual was long, complexly structured and involved many

more people than usual and more widely varied energies than usual,

some of which were really hard to manage. Unfortunately, the ritual

took a long time to conduct because so many people were moved by God,

Goddess or Spirit to speak their messages.

Third, we were not "capitalizing" on 9/11. Never in my lifetime have

I heard of innocent lives of such staggering numbers being sacrificed

in what was essentially baneful blood magic. The terrorists' intent

was to create terror and chaos and their success was unprecedented in

the history of our country. We have all felt the energies, as well as

the bewilderment of some of the sacrificed. The Craft community, on

the whole, has had rituals worldwide to help disperse these energies

and help everyone deal with them and the terror. During Samhain the

veil is the thinnest and therefore it is the best time to deal with

these energies as well as the spirits of those who passed over. Our

intent was to provide comfort and healing for those of our community

who have been so deeply wounded by the tragedy, as well as to send

healing energies the millions of people around the world who are in

need of comfort.

It was heralded both loudly and clearly all over the gathering site

several times that main ritual would be extremely cold and intense.

People were strongly advised to dress warmly. Before the ritual

started, we announced that anyone who wanted to leave for any reason,

be it the cold or the energies, could go the one of the Quarter

holders and they would cut a door for them to leave. We also told

everyone where the fires, coffee, hot chocolate, and talking circles

were. There were several fires and talking circles available until 3

or 4 a.m. for anyone who needed to warm up or talk about the

energies, issues or feelings that might have been released by the

ritual. There was one all-night talking circle specifically for this

purpose. In addition, yes, there was one person directly involved in

the ritual who was, for a brief time, overcome by the energies. The

incident was not in any way related to the cold. He was taken to a

fire and attended to immediately.

After the ritual, Lee, your wife came to me (Jade), since I am head

of security. She told me she had cold people in her camp, two of whom

she was worried about. I asked her for details and if she needed

anything. She and I talked a few minutes and she told me she would

keep an eye on them and let me know if she did. As she is a long-

time member of my Security staff, I trust her to use her judgment and

to tell me if she needs anything. She only had to ask and I would

have called an ambulance or gotten a ride to the hospital for them.

At the same, time, Medical was in the middle of dealing with a

possible broken ankle, but I sent him down as soon as he finished.

Later your wife came to me again and said the cold people had been

taken to a hotel room and she thought they would be fine. I don't

know if Medical made it down there before they left or not, but I

trusted the judgment of your wife and expected that the situation was

handled, and that she would let me know of any changes or problems --

she's always good about that. My team, as well as medical walked the

campsites and found no more cases of hypothermia. Medical and

security checks for hypothermia are part of our normal safety

procedures during cold weather gatherings and it is common that these

are especially concentrated after Samhain main rituals since people

often do not feel the cold afterward.

While we at SerpentStone encourage personal responsibility be it for

magical practices, personal behavior or the way you dress for

whatever weather, we also endeavor, through education and qualified

Medical and Security teams to make everyone aware of any dangers and

how to deal with them. We have frequent workshops about camping in

cold/hot weather, gathering etiquette, and a Wicca 101 type of

workshop where we cover, among other things, how to recognize if your

HP/S is abusing power or you and how to deal with it.

We list what to bring and how to dress in our fliers for each

gathering, and have warming stations set up all over the site. There

is even one huge tent with a wood

stove, whose owner lets people warm up in it and sometimes even sleep

there.

Whenever I hear of someone without proper camping gear or clothing I

find them a place to sleep and/or warm loaner clothing. Many Elders

and members bring extras of whatever they have for loans to these

people, including (in limited supply) sleeping bags, blankets, and

tents. We try to do all we can to ensure that everyone has a safe and

enjoyable celebration.

If you have suggestions to further ensure safe cold- weather camping

for everyone, please feel free to contact us and we'll be happy to

discuss it with you. In our years of experience with cold-weather

gatherings, we have incorporated many suggestions into our standard

security and medical procedures. Please keep mind that much of our

security and medical duties are performed as unobtrusively as

possible to cause the least possible embarrassment for those

concerned.

We are committed to doing all we can to ensure everyone will have

safe environment in which to celebrate.

Requests

Susan Lawton would like the following:

1- Admittance that harm was done to me as a result of the Triad's

actions/inactions including, but not limited to:

Leaving Susan holding the bag on the Pagan Ten list. Susan feels she

was asked to perform a task for the Triad and once she reported the

results, support for her actions was withdrawn.

Unfair system of recognition and promotion

Breaking the oath "have my back should I ever need them."

And...

2- Apologies for harm done intentionally or unintentionally

Due to the length of the questions list and the fact that when I got

it almost finished my computer ate it and I had to start over and now

I've had continuing computer problems, we have become concerned about

the length of time it has taken us to answer these questions. I

respectfully ask additional time to address these matters in a

separate post. (For those of you who don't know me I'm not computer

illiterate, I'm computer antagonistic, my computer IS the antichrist.)

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:49:51 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

>> Of course no one likes it done to them, or to someone they like. On this

list respect given garners respect in return. Likewise, insults and

rudeness get a person insulted in return.<<

But that simply continues/supports the cycle. If you can't or won't break

out of it, then you spend endless days playing the game.

>> When the Stinkyfish stops giving me nasty emails to reply to.<<

Then what you are saying is that you are willing to let her control you,

right? You're willing to dance to the music she plays until SHE gets tired

of it?

>> Funny, but from my perspective, you are one of the folks who have made

yourself look like an ass. You berate me for the same behavior you condone

in the Stinkyfish, and then expect folks to accept that you are not

defending a friend. Interesting how that perspective thing works :-)<<

Betsy, the difference between you and Julia, as I see it, is that SHE has

not been referred to/promoted as some kind of "Leader". YOU, however, HAVE

been promoted as such, so I expect to see some of those leadership qualities

in you visible in what you post here. I don't look for any of those

qualities in her messages. Obviously, I'm not too shy to bring it up in

public. Now, if that, somehow, makes me look like an ass in your eyes,

<shrug> then I'm going to look like an ass in your eyes.

Even in your reply to me you can't help but refer to her as "Stinkyfish"

rather than Julia/Thwalk/Vern or whatever name she's using. That make this

dialog nothing more than yet another opportunity to poke at her. Doesn't

speak well of you, does it?

Am I Julia's "friend"? As much as I am of anyone else I come into contact

with on a regular basis online or offline. I would say we are often

friendly, but don't always get along.

As recently as this past October, I was forced to kick her off one of my

lists, had her show back up almost immediately and continue the fight we

were having; kick her off again and set her to "kill/deny" so she couldn't

post anything else to the list. WH at the time wasn't set for me to

approve/deny subscriptions, so I couldn't stop anyone from

subscribing/re-subscribing. We have since changed list programs and that

problem won't come up again.

>> When the "crappola' disappears I won't have it to respond to now will

I??<<

Others would tell you, gleefully, that you are simply giving away your

power. In this instance, I would have to agree. You don't HAVE to respond

to it, Betsy. Just because the hook is baited doesn't mean you HAVE to rise

to it, do you?

>> It wasn't a problem on this list before the Stinkyfish and her school of

guppies arrived.<<

Again the opportunity arises for you to slam Julia and you don't let it

slide by. This time you managed to insult the others as well.

There's a whole lot of messages [3,600] posted in the first month this list

was in operation. Are you telling me they were all peaceful, happy-joy-joy

type messages? No flames? No heated disagreements that got carried further

than they needed to?

>>Now, as a group, we get to experiment with different ways of dealing with

attention starved sophists.<<

Are they really starved for attention or have the disagreements they have

with you brought about the nonsense we're seeing? Are they trolls or do

they have legitimate issues? Can you tell the difference or are you so busy

dancing to their tune you don't have time to pay attention to what is being

said?

>> Fine by me. Like I said before, I am more then willing to play by

someone else's rules. As long as they are here being nasty and rude to

people, they will get nasty and rude in return....now how hard is that to

understand???<<

Pretty easy to understand, not all that easy to accept in someone who's

SUPPOSED to be a Leader.

Oh, and before it's pointed out... No, I'm not perfect. Yes, I'm quite

capable of creating and sustaining a good flamewar all on my own. No, I

don't consider myself to be a "Leader" or "Elder" in any community, I don't

care what the others seem to think about the role(s) I play/have played

there. Yes, I do believe that "Leaders" and "Elders" should be held to

higher standards.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:07:42 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> Actually, that was Fern, not Vern who claimed a fat ass.

True...I'm tall and thin.

Betsy Wetsy:

>>...and the moral of this story is "Flamebait will catch you a

>>stinkingfish everytime" <BG>

Enyo-lita:

> Since you find it appropriate to attempt to steal the Fish's power away

> by calling her "stinkingfish", I must wonder how much power I would be

> able to snatch away from you by referring to you as "Betsy Wetsy"...

The funny thing is that she is ridiculing a fucking SCREEN NAME! Why would

I give a shit? <hint to Wetsy~ Walkingfish isn't my real name>

But please type my name, real or screen as often as possible.

Hoolia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:29:22 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Isis:

> Hmmm. Maybe we finally caught her at a loss for words!

> She was speechless!!

Yeah...wishful thinking. She just couldn't come up with a post of her own

so she recycled mine and snuck her name in....

Kind of like when she's repeatedly claimed to be mimicking me but no one

knew it so she has to explain it. Again, and again.

She's just 'humor impaired' and substitutes ridicule for anything actually

funny. Now watch carefully! she may repost anything and slip in her name

to delight herself ( and no one else)

Vern

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:39:02 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

> Isis Wyndsong:

>>>>Other than that I'm not 'targeting' anyone.

> Sorry, I meant that Betsy is targeting. I should have said that more

> clearly.

What can I say but * Mwaaaah*!

By the by....I started reading you and immediately LIKED you...then you

said that you were associated with my esteemed darling AoB!

Well there ya' go!

Boolia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:49:22 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> Aw baby, not even from the Tool of Satan?

NOPE. A good slam..oh yes...please....otherwise I become an athiest

again....

still~ Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

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From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: witch_wars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 405

Date: 12/30/1899

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

2. Re: Digest Number 395

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

3. Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

4. Re: Digest Number 395

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

5. Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

6. Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

7. Re: Digest Number 395

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

8. Re: Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

9. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

10. Re:Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

11. Re:Answers to SerpentStone Questions 4

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

12. Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

13. Answers to SerpentStone Questions 1

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

14. Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: SacredDragonsfl@aol.com

15. Re: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

16. Re: Digest Number 400

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

17. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

18. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

19. Re: Good for the goose...sig shortening

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

20. Re: Re:Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

21. Re: Re:Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

22. Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

23. Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

24. RE: Yankees....

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

25. Re: Yankees....

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:58:35 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

> Damn Julia, I couldn't have described you better myself, you've gotten

> to know that mirror pretty well haven't ya...

Well I'm sure you could have if you put any more effort into it than Betsy

did.... taking a post and substituting names for the actual poster.

Guy and Inanna never had to sink to that.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:04:34 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 395

Enyo,

You are correct and I know better, but in the words of Popye "I stands all

I can stand, but me's can't stands no more!" We tried the ignore thing and it

did not work and the insults are worse to get rid of than a case of crabs!

LOL

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

Who wishes she knew the right medicine to cleanse this case of board crabs!

Geesh!

<< Cerridwyn, I get the feeling that you're not new to the mailing list

front. So, with that knowledge in hand, I would think that you'd realize

that the quickest way for a thread to die is to stop feeding it.

And yet, you continue to do so... Fascinating. >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 02:05:02 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Good for the goose...

*golf clap golf clap golf clap*

My dearest Lord Kern, if you weren't alredy my only deity, I'd enlist

immediately. You are the BALLS!

Thwalk

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:12:41 -0500

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 395

Cerridwyn wrote:

>Enyo,

> You are correct and I know better,

So, why persist?

>but in the words of Popye "I stands all

>I can stand, but me's can't stands no more!"

There's that thing about thin skin, again...

>We tried the ignore thing and it

>did not work and the insults are worse to get rid of than a case of crabs!

And you know perfectly well that sometimes, it takes a week of mass

deleting certain subject headers to get it to work. All you're doing in

this is continuing to feed a thread that you profess to be

over. <shrugs> It won't ever die that way, you know...

Enyo

"There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

--Seneca

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 02:19:11 -0000

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

--- In WitchWars@y..., "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@O...> wrote:

> At 11:08 AM 2/3/02, Enyo <enyo@p...> wrote:

> >Since you find it appropriate to attempt to steal the Fish's power

away by

> >calling her "stinkingfish", I must wonder how much power I would be

able to

> >snatch away from you by referring to you as "Betsy Wetsy"...

> Not very much considering I have the doll on my shelf LOL....Of

course I guess if someone lacks the ability to be original, they have

to fall back on the childhood stuff :-0

ROFLMAO... if I could have my power 'stolen' by someone calling me

rude names on an email list I'd turn in my wand. Get real.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 02:23:12 -0000

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

--- In WitchWars@y..., Raven Scott <siana@p...> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <dragonsfl@a...>

> > Sad but too true! My goodness we do have some issues to work

through if

> we

> > are ever going to be a real community.

> Cerridwyn? What, to you, constitutes a "real community"?

I'm with Raven on this one... this looks like every pagan community

I've ever spent any time in at all. Insults, bitching, endless

shitstorms and drama queens galore, ridiculous sexual innuendo between

people who don't even know each other... yep, it's a pagan community

alright. Or high school. Hm.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:30:01 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 395

Enyo,

I do not have thin skin, but I have never been any good at ignoring bad

behavior either. Maybe now this list can do more than try to feed on each

other. Bad behavior is bad behavior and part of the problem is we ignore bad

behavior way too often.

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< There's that thing about thin skin, again... >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:37:35 EST

From: dragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

Is it High School or Jr. High? This crap would would not have been tolerated

at my High School!

Love and Honor,

Cerridwyn Stormdragon

<< yep, it's a pagan community

alright. Or high school. Hm. >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 02:45:24 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...

Enyo:

> Look, Fish, Cerridwyn's giving you power. :-)

I know! I love it when they just offer it up! And like Betsy, she just

can't get enough of me in spite of the fact that I've yet to respond

directly to her since *I* said I wouldn't. A word here, a

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:59:17 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 08:49 PM 2/3/02, Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com> wrote:

><smiles> Sometimes, pushing a childhood-related button gets the most

>results. I do things for a reason. :-)

Ahhh... well you would have to see my office to understand that I am still having my childhood <BG>

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:28:42 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re:Answers to SerpentStone Questions 4

At 08:49 PM 2/3/02, "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Due to the length of the questions list and the fact that when I got

>it almost finished my computer ate it and I had to start over and now

>I've had continuing computer problems, we have become concerned about

>the length of time it has taken us to answer these questions. I

>respectfully ask additional time to address these matters in a

>separate post. (For those of you who don't know me I'm not computer

>illiterate, I'm computer antagonistic, my computer IS the antichrist.)

I'm not sure what everyone else thinks, but I am of the opinion that yawl should take all the time you need..... ESPECIALLY with the interpersonal relationship issues. This mess has gone on for years. If it takes a few weeks, or even a few months, to come to some kind of conclusion, it will be time well spent.

I strongly suggest that folks read the very detailed and extensive emails yawl have written....and then read them again....before posting a response.

Can we please try to keep the "Answers to SerpentStone Questions" thread "pure" and only post to these threads specific questions and comments directly related to the answers from SerpentStone?? If you want to deviate off into a philosophical discussion of the answers, PLEASE create a new thread!!

Blessings,

Betsy

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:35:32 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

At 08:49 PM 2/3/02, Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net> wrote:

>But that simply continues/supports the cycle. If you can't or won't break

>out of it, then you spend endless days playing the game.

You just don't get it...but that's ok LOL Yawl have been lovely comic relief during intermission, but the SerpentStone answers are in, so I can't play with you at the moment.

If you're still around during the lull between the 3rd and final act, I'll be happy to do the flamebait fandango with you again for awhile.... until something real comes along :-)

B~)

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:45:10 -0500

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

Subject: Answers to SerpentStone Questions 1

At 08:49 PM 2/3/02, "jadeofserpentstone" <jadeofserpentstone@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Hello Everyone--

>This is Spider sending under Jade's account-- she has just gone into

>labor as we were finishing our answers to these questions.

OK...now this is dedication. I've delayed having supper before to finish an important email.... but Jade's determination is really impressive <BG>

Please give her my best wishes for a quick and easy delivery. Also please let us know how she and the baby fare??

Blessings,

Betsy

0====(::::::::::::::::>

Betsy Ashby

mailto:Center@OutoftheDark.com

http://www.OutoftheDark.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:03:33 EST

From: SacredDragonsfl@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

OK you got me there I can't disagree with you on that one. LOL

Gwydion

<< Nah, I got a pretty big waistline, too... >>

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:10:53 -0800 (PST)

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: [WitchWarsLengthy sigs (was: Good for the goose...

Hey now,

I find this kinda funny all the fighting over longish sigs.

Except for Grem, nobody has bitched about my "Crash Davis sig"

And his bitch was about the witchie validity of it not the length.

'course there's this guy who has a sig that's like four pages long,

I asked Erica to find it for me so you can see it...

RobII

*_*_*__*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

Erica Frank & Rob CarterII

I believe in the soul: the cock, the pussy,

the small of a woman's back;

The hangin' curve ball, high fiber, good scotch;

That the novels of Susan Sontag are self indulgent, overrated

crap.

I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing

astroturf and the designated hitter.

I believe in the sweet spot, softcore pornography,

Opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas eve,

And I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last

three days.

-"Crash" Davis-

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:37:18 -0800 (PST)

From: Erica and or Rob <elfwreck@idiom.com>

Subject: Re: Digest Number 400

> taglines onlist. And Rob has also caught flak for his sig line...but doesn't

> always use the one that quotes an entire monologue from a movie. THey often

> use a much more reasonable length of sig line.

Hey now,

The only "flack" I got for the "Crash Davis" sig was from Grem and

he just didn't like the content. Untill just now with your post *nobody*

has bitched about the length of my sig lines. But now that I know... in

true Discordian fasion I'll remember to use it often;-) .

RobII

Or how about this one...

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

Rob CarterII K.S.C. Erica Frank K.S.C.

High Episkapos A.J.M.C. High priestess A.J.M.C

paratheoanametamystichood P.O.E.E.

of Eris esoteric

The Redneck Pagan racing team

in godess we trust

-Avatar Jones memorial cabal-

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17

Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:28:12 -0800

From: Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

----- Original Message -----

From: "Out of the Dark, Inc." <News@OutoftheDark.com>

>> You just don't get it...but that's ok LOL Yawl have been lovely comic

relief during intermission, but the SerpentStone answers are in, so I can't

play with you at the moment.<<

I wasn't playing. Except for the one moment of silliness, which was clearly

marked as such, I haven't played here at all. The questions I have asked of

you and the observations I have made have been honest. If you're reading

more into my words than I put there, well, that's your choice.

>> If you're still around during the lull between the 3rd and final act,

I'll be happy to do the flamebait fandango with you again for awhile....

until something real comes along :-)<<

If I'm still around... We'll see. As for "something real"... would you know

it if you saw it? Somehow, I don't think so.

---

Raven Scott

aka Corvid Contrarius

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 03:31:24 -0500

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

Ok Julia,

Add me to the list for living in progressive backward Poquoson, VA. We have an open door policy and jerrymandered borders. We have good schools, low taxes, and an $8.75 charge to dispose of 5 bags of trash. We have a comprehensive growth plan and no land to grow on. Last but not least, from April through Dec. we have moisquitoes that fly in sqadron formation from sunset to moon rise. This is the best place I've lived yet, you can leave your doors unlocked, and I can't wait to move.

Carl

--------------------------------------------------------

Brief as the lightning that in the collied night,

Unfolds both heaven and earth,

And ere a man has power to say: behold!

The jaws of darkness do devour it up.

So quick bright things come to confusion!"

Shakespeare, "A Midsummer Night's Dream"

----- Original Message -----

From: Julia Walkingfish

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:38 AM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> And Julia, let me assure you that living in Toronto and Montreal

> does

> not qualify you to say you live "all over Canada"! Canada is

> approximately one third larger than the United States and no two

> cities, especially two cities only a few hours apart from each other,

> can qualify as "all over Canada"! In fact you were unfortunate enough

> to have experienced only the worst of my nation and missed all the best

> parts completely.

> Your welcome,

> Nehani

That's nice Nehani, but what I actually WROTE was, that I've lived all over

the US and Canada. Not all over Canada...and yes I've been to quite a few

other parts of Canada as well.

Let me further explain. Betsy likes to categorize people and ideas in neat

little boxes that she can then slap a label on. For example calling me

a 'Yankee.' My comment about having lived many places was in response to

that.

Subsequently a whole thread of people debating the definition of the

word 'Yankee' and expressing pride in having been born somewhere has

developed.

I'd like to personally congratulate each and every one of you for:

1. Having been born

2. Living somewhere

3. Staying there

4. Liking it

To everyone for whom one or all of those things apply, congratulations.

Having lived many places I can honestly say that there are lots of nice

places to live. If you take pride in where you happen to live, good for

you.

Julia

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 03:43:37 -0500

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Good for the goose...sig shortening

Ok, hows this....

[Insert a meaningful quote here]

----- Original Message -----

From: Enyo

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:42 AM

Subject: Re: [WitchWars] Good for the goose...

Anita wrote:

>OIC, OTOH, if you don't mind my asking this question, why has this not

>been brought up anywhere else but this list? If it was a problem I would

>think that it would have been addressed already in the other lists.

I don't recall you ever using a sig this long on Circle... And Gwen and I

aren't moderators on WH, so it's not really our place to address it there,

either.

Hel, I wouldn't be addressing it here at all if you hadn't screamed that

you were being picked on for it. Now take your bong hit and settle down

with your bag of doritos like a good girl. ;-)

Enyo

"I am a kind of paranoiac in reverse. I suspect people of plotting to make

me happy."

J.D. Salinger

http://www.paganvillages.com/Goddess/enyosworkshop

ICQ: 136952092 | AIM: Enyo War Goddess

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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:50:23 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re: Good for the goose...

Betsy, who never quits:

> I will be putting your address in my "ignore" list.

Runs away like a little gurrrl..

> I am not going to

> deal with 25 lines of advertisements for a one line post

....see Rob's subsequent post. You'll no doubt want to hide from him too.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:53:08 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

, Enyo wrote:

>><smiles> Sometimes, pushing a childhood-related button gets the most

>>results. I do things for a reason. :-)

to which Betsy Tooted:

> Ahhh... well you would have to see my office to understand that I am

> still having my childhood <BG>

No, your posts are adequate demonstration of that.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:56:16 -0000 (GMT)

From: "Julia Walkingfish" <walkingfish@talk-freedom.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Good for the goose...

> At 08:49 PM 2/3/02, Raven Scott <siana@pacbell.net> wrote:

>>But that simply continues/supports the cycle. If you can't or won't

>>break out of it, then you spend endless days playing the game.

> Betsy Cut the Cheese with:

> You just don't get it...but that's ok LOL Yawl have been lovely

> comic relief during intermission, but the SerpentStone answers are in,

Yeah there's a gripping topic...

> so I can't play with you at the moment.

And Betsy-who-never-quits runs away like a little gurrl, AGAIN.

Julia

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 04:06:49 -0500

From: "Carl Powell" <blackbirdcp@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: Duck, Duck, Good for the goose...

Attention All Geese,

Please stand down for approx. 3 minutes!

Ok, resume flaming.......again..........sigh.......

[Insert a meaningful quote here]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 03:00:13 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: RE: Yankees....

--- Sunshine <sun926@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> I am a Southerner as well. And I was taught the same

> thing. A Yank is *born* above the Mason-Dixon. But

> then again I am not a Rebel (Civil War) because I

> am a Native Floridian. And if I remember correctly

> FL was not part of the either at that time. (I am

> _very_ bad with History)

LOL! Yep, Florida was not only a Confederate State,

She was one of the first seven to secede! In fact,

the shooting that started in Charleston was almost

predated by another similar situation in a couple of

places in Florida! Trust me, I can tell you more

about the history, and pre-history, of that conflict

than you probably ever really wanted to know!

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

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Message: 25

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 03:12:54 -0800 (PST)

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Yankees....

--- SingingCrow <singcrow@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> It is only 244 miles long. Other than that it is a

> completely imaginary and meaningless distinction

> that not one of you could find on any map.

Now, all of US know that line is actually in our

hearts, not on a line on a map made up by some

Englishmen! However, if you want to go back into the

particulars of history, that line divided a whole lot

more than the borders of two colonies. The inability

of the Brits to understand that cost them their

colonies here. The inability of the Yankee to

understand that caused everything else that came

after!

> Now you may think that anyone born North of

> Maryland is a Yankee but to the rest of the world,

> who do not identify themselves in such uniquely

> American terms, we are not Yankees.

Well, all y'all yankees, y'all can just keep on

believing that if it makes y'all feel better! :-)

> In fact, if you want to put it to an international

> vote, all ya'll is Yankees no matter what side of

> the nonline you were born on. So there! Scotti is

> more of a Yankee than I'll ever be, hah! How do you

> like them apples Mr. Ice Skating God? Feeling a

> little BLUE right now?

Now you see, there we was having a nice little;e

friendly discussion, and all of a sudden you want to

uttering them fightin' words. Actually, I was born in

Lake Charles, Louisiana, as were both of my parents.

I grew up about 45 miles off of the Gulf coast! If

y'all check your map there, you will find that is just

a wee little bit south of Mr. Mason's and Mr. Dixon's

chalk line! :-)

I Am,

Your Humble Servant,

Scotti

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Top

From: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

To: WitchWars@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WitchWars] Digest Number 406

Date: 2/4/2002

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

WitchWars-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. book thumpers (was good goose)

From: victoria T <victorias_hideaway@yahoo.com>

2. Re: Digest Number 395

From: Enyo <enyo@paganportals.com>

3. Re: Yankees....

From: "vampyresire1" <VampyreSire@hotmail.com>

4. Re: Re: Yankees....

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

5. Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: "Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>

6. Re: book thumpers (was good goose)

From: WWJunoD@aol.com

7. Re: Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

From: "Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>

8. Re: Yankees....

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

9. Re: Good for the goose...

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

10. Re: proselytizing (was: goose)

From: "atumankh" <atumankh@yahoo.com>

11. Re: Yankees....

From: Scott Hamilton <scottia_37@yahoo.com>

12. Re: Re: Good for the goose...

From: victoria T <victorias_hideaway@y